[00:17] Meg: Hi. Welcome to the very first episode of Desperately Seeking the 80s: New York edition. I am Meg.

[00:24] Jessica: and I am Jessica, and Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We went to middle school and high school together here in New York City where we still live.

[00:33] Meg: and where we are very good friends indeed.

[00:38] Jessica: Yes, we are.

[00:39] Meg: And this is a podcast about New York City in the 80s and just the wild things that happened here. And now that we are adults, we're looking back on that crazy decade and discovering some interesting things.

[00:54] Jessica: That we definitely didn't have the perspective then to understand.

[00:57] Meg: Exactly.

[00:57] Jessica: So I'm going to cover pop culture.

[00:59] Meg: And I'm doing RIT from the headlines.

[01:02] Jessica: All right, let's get started. So, Meg, what are you going to tell us about today?

[01:13] Meg: Well, Jessica, I was going to start by asking you a question. This might be a regular thing where I start by asking you a question. I like to engage.

[01:22] Jessica: Well as you know, I’m very open.

[01:25] Meg: So how many girls do you think you have met in your life who have come to New York City in order to discover themselves?

[01:37] Jessica: Too many to count. Hundreds.

[01:39] Meg: Exactly. I mean, I feel like it's actually something that is special about New York City, that lots of young girls across the country, across the world, imagine what New York City is and they come here to, I don’t know, have a glamorous life

[1:57] Jessica: To find their destiny

[1:58] Meg: Exactly.

[01:59] Jessica: I apologize in advance because my small dog, who is with us and will probably be an ongoing part of our broadcasting team, seems to be snoring a lot. It's not about you.

[02:10] Meg: Thank you, Jessica. I feel better that I'm not boring.

[02:13] Jessica: No. Alfie is not to be looked at as a critic. Merely an asthmatic.

[02:20] Meg: No, Alfie is the best. Okay, so I'm going to tell you today the story about one of these young girls. Her name was Connie Crispell. And I'm going to give you my sources, inside Edition and a New York magazine article from 1984 written by Michael Daly and a website called Ephemeral New York, which is amazing, by the way, and has been a great resource for a lot of the stories I'm going to tell. So, Connie Crispell wanted to discover all New York City had to offer in the late seventies and eighties. And for better and worse, she did. She moved here from Charlottesville, Virginia, when she was 22. She was the fifth daughter of a prominent Southern family and went to Albemarle High School, where she was a member of the drama club and the tennis team. She wore headbands, Peter Pan collars and pearls. Can you picture her?

[03:16] Jessica: Oh, yes.

[03:17] Meg: When she moved to New York in 1974, she lived in a two bedroom at Twelve East 86th street, right off Central Park, and paid $500 a month.

[03:27] Jessica: I actually know that building. The dentist of mine was in that building.

[03:32] Meg: And do you know how much the equivalent would be? $500 a month now?

[03:37] Jessica: No.

[03:38] Meg: The two bedroom in that neighborhood. $2,782.05. So not bad, actually.

[03:48] Jessica: Damn good for New York.

[03:50] Meg: Well, but remember, New York wasn't quite the destination of real estate. Prices hadn't skyrocketed at this.

[04:00] Jessica: It had a CD element.

[04:02] Meg: Yes. Fear City, I think, is what it was called.

[04:06] Jessica: All right.

[04:07] Meg: She had some interesting jobs. She started a jewelry line making necklaces out of gold subway tokens.

[04:14] Jessica: Cool.

[04:15] Meg: Awesome idea. But she was thwarted by the MTA, and she founded a bartender for hire service, recruiting women and dispatching them to parties wearing white blouses, black skirts, and bow ties.

[04:28] Jessica: Sounds delightful and dangerous.

[04:31] Meg: Well, I think most things were. She attempted to market Skylab hats, but someone beat her to it.

[04:40] Jessica: Meaning to protect you from falling Skylab.

[04:43] Meg: Yeah. The point is, she was creative, she was an entrepreneur, and she was making her way in the world.

[04:51] Jessica: Okay. Go, Connie.

[04:53] Meg: She worked in advertising at Ogilvy and Mather briefly. And on the sales floor of Brooks Brothers. So so briefly. And in the office of Caroline Herrera.

[05:04] Jessica: Ooh interesting.

[05:05] Meg: Yeah, but no career really grabbed her or took full advantage of her talents. She was a master entertainer, and wherever she lived, she was known for throwing fun, eclectic parties and bringing together all sorts of people who would not have otherwise known each other. Which, to me, sounds so New York. She and her roommate, Anne Peterson. Loved Studio 54 and other dance clubs of that time. Area on Hudson and Page Six on Houston. A friend describes her as Miss Party Girl of New York City. She and Anne rose at about 10:00 p.m. And showered. They put on disco music and got themselves in the proper spirit. And Connie often made a pitcher of vodka tonics. Then they hopped in a cab and headed for Studio 54, arriving back home on 86th street at 04:00 A.m.

[05:58] Jessica: That sounds like our entire growing up experience.

[06:00] Meg: I mean, I feel like every single generation has the equivalent of Connie.

[06:05] Jessica: Yes, and just as a quick note, the best part of the evening is invariably hanging out in your apartment, getting wasted with your friends, getting dressed.

[6:14] Meg: Absolutely.

[6:15] Jessica: Just saying.

[06:15] Meg: Go ahead. So, when Studio 54 closed down in 1980, Anne decided to move on from the party scene and her roommate. But Connie kept going. She borrowed money from her family and moved to the FBI building on East 69th street, right off Third Avenue. She dated an assortment of men, including a blue blood preppy, listen to this, Hamilton Fish Potter III.

[06:40] Jessica: Oh, well, that's like Mrs. Astor’s 500 right there. The Fishes of New York.

[06:46] Meg: And a 60 year old diamond tycoon, Bernard Jolis.

[06:51] Jessica: Weird.

[06:52] Meg: Okay. But never appears to have had a lasting, loving partnership, and honestly, doesn't really seem to have been looking for one.

[7:01] Jessica: Who needs it?

[7:03] Meg: In 1981, Studio 54 reopened, and Connie was a regular on the dance floor. Many people from that time say they moved on from the crazy party days after Studio 54 was closed by the IRS in 1980. These are the people who say they had a wake up call and decided staying home with a book wasn't the worst thing in the world. But some diehards like Connie weren't ready to hang up their dance shoes. It was around this time that she hit hard times financially and moved into the all female Martha Washington Hotel at 29 East 29th street. Reportedly, she hated to leave her fancy Upper East Side addresses, but dire times led to dire measures.

[07:46] Jessica: Got it.

[07:47] Meg: Quick note about women only hotels in New York. There were a number of them in New York at this time. Upper and middle class families would set their single working daughters up in these supervised hotels in order to, quote, preserve the purity, dignity and femininity of future wives and mothers.

[08:04] Jessica: And also to set the stage for the 1980s hit sitcom Bosom Buddies, featuring

[08:12] Meg: Tom Hanks

[08:14] Jessica: and the recently departed Peter Scalari. Rip.

[08:17] Meg: And did it actually take place at the Barmizon?

[08:21] Jessica: It was a made up name, but it was that was basically the idea, yeah.

[08:26] Meg: I wonder if other cities have all women hotels.

[08:30] Jessica: What do we care, this is about New York?

[08:32] Meg: That's true. I'm just curious if it's like if that's like a special thing about New York or anyway, I don't know. They definitely existed in New York. They had the added benefit of being more affordable. And it was about this time that Connie began working for the Trist Escort Service. Well, no, she's making her way, and she was charging $200 an hour. The cable TV ad for Trist stated it was for those who want the very finest in an escort service. Panache, excitement.

[09:10] Jessica: As opposed to we'll send you a ratty hooker.

[09:11] Meg: Yeah I think so, I mean, but look, from what I could tell.

[09:16] Jessica: We specialize in venereal diseases, we’ll send it to you immediately.

[09:22] Meg: I guess my point is that Connie didn't seem to be embarrassed about this at all. Did she need money and did she go out and get money as a sex worker? Yes, she did. But she wasn't particularly shameful about it. She seemed to be perfectly fine.

[09:39] Jessica: She was living her best sexy life.

[09:41] Meg: Exactly.

[09:41] Jessica: Okay.

[09:42] Meg: Connie would be on the dance floor, and her pager would go off and she'd zip out the door, calling out to her friends that she'd be back in an hour. She wasn't embarrassed about her new gig. She talked about it openly at fancy parties to the occasional chagrin of an uptown hostess. Her first month on the job, she made $10,000.

[10:02] Jessica: Damn.

[10:04] Meg: Right. In today's money, 26,620 dollars and 69 cents.

[10:08] Jessica: Damn.

[10:09] Meg: Right. She told her friends her clients were pretty tame and that she felt safe. But yeah, one night she was beaten up by two men from New Jersey.

[10:21] Jessica: Well, that makes perfect sense.

[10:23] Meg: I mean, I hate to say, but you know, sex work is not safe.

[10:29] Jessica: Yes, but when the bridge and tunnel crowd comes, you know, it's really a problem.

[10:33] Meg: She came back home with a black eye and refused to discuss what had happened to her shortly after that. This story is going to take a turn. Just warning you.

[10:45] Jessica: I figured

[10:45] Meg: Yeah. She climbed naked onto the ledge of a friend's 9th floor apartment and stood screaming until the police came.

[10:54] Jessica: So maybe Connie wasn't quite so content.

[10:57] Meg: Yeah, perhaps. Something happened and she snapped. They took her in handcuffs to Bellevue.

[11:06] Jessica: In handcuffs? Was she fighting? Why would they handcuff a poor, unfortunate.

[11:13] Meg: Hysterical woman? I don't know.

[11:14] Jessica: Well, that's it, actually. That's the answer. Hysterical woman boo.

[11:18] Meg: Yeah, instead of somebody who is traumatized by violence. So they took her to Bellevue, which is a mental hospital on East 26th street and First Avenue.

[11:30] Jessica: The psychiatric institute.

[11:32] Meg: I'm going to keep giving addresses because it’s my favorite friggin thing.

[11:37] Jessica: No it’s fantastic, you need to have a visual. And Bellevue still exists.

[11:38] Meg: No, it's actually right around the corner from where I live. So she was committed there for psychiatric evaluation. But true to form, she made great friends. During her stay there, she got a woman who hadn't spoken in years to start talking, and one male patient wrote her dozens of love poems. She told one of her friends, who called her on Ward Five that she had to get off the phone because she was hosting a party on the board with the other patients. She stole a Bellevue bathrobe and wore it to Studio 54 when she was released after ten days.

[12:14] Jessica: That girl had style.

[12:16] Meg: Connie, come on.

[12:17] Jessica: No, I'm telling you, that was actually a genius wardrobe move.

[12:23] Meg: Don't you love Connie?

[12:25] Jessica: Well, I don't know if I'd want to be Connie's roommate.

[12:39] Meg: No

[12:30] Jessica: but she seems like a good time gal.

[12:31] Meg: Yeah, I've got a lot of respect for Connie. Early in 1984 she met a man at the Oak Room in the Plaza and started subletting his one bedroom at 58 West 58th street, which is right around the corner from the Plaza and a 15 minutes walk to Studio 54, which is still the place she wants to go even though many of her friends aren't going there anymore.

[12:56] Jessica: Didn't it close for good after just a year of being reopened.

[13:03] Meg: You know? No, because here we are in 1984.

[13:06] Jessica: All right, well maybe that’s another episode.

[13:07] Meg: Yeah, exactly. We should do an episode about Studio 54. She would regularly host gatherings there with heiresses and sports stars and designers and people she met at the dance clubs. On Saturday, May 5, 1984, she hosted a Kentucky Derby party on 58th street. She served mint juleps and the party went late into the night. After the party broke up, she swung by Page Six in the early morning hours and that's the last any of her friends heard from her. Six days later, Connie's neighbors called police after they saw strangers going in and out of her apartment. Police came to check it out and found two sex workers in the apartment who said they had been living there for a week with Charles Ransom, a 20 year old ex-convict and Times Square Theater security guard, who was also known in the club scene. Upon further inspection, they discovered Connie's nude body in a trunk on her balcony. Oof. They tracked down Charles Ransom at the Kamikaze Club. He claimed he and Crispell had sex the early morning after the Kentucky Derby party. Afterward, Crispell told him that she thought she had AIDS. In response, he blacked out and strangled and suffocated her. He put her body in a clothing trunk and placed it on her balcony. And then he continued partying in her apartment. He stayed there a week. The events that took place and the words exchanged between Connie and Ransom before she was killed will never be known. But what is clear is Ransom's belief at the time that claiming the possibility that Connie may have had either HIV or AIDS was enough of an excuse to use in an effort to escape murder charges.

[15:06] Jessica: Was he right?

[15:08] Meg: They didn't test her. No one will know.

[15:10] Jessica: Interesting.

[15:11] Meg: Ransom was convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 25 years in prison. He was released in August 2017 and passed away October 2017. I couldn't figure out how he died, but I did see a picture of him.

[15:31] Jessica: and I'm sure he did not look fresh.

[15:35] Meg: No, he looked like a guy who had been in prison for a while. But that's the interesting thing about a lot of these rip from the headline stories that I'm going to be telling. All those guys are either out of jail or they're getting out of jail.

[15:49] Jessica: Good gravy.

[15:50] Meg: Yeah. Sorry. Unnerving. A month after her murder in 1984, Connie's friends held a memorial at St. Thomas Church on Fifth Avenue and 53rd street to mourn, quote, “the loss of the girl who always wanted one more moment of fun.” And that is the story of Connie Crispell, the girl in the trunk. I didn't give the title at the beginning because, you know, I don't know.

[16:19] Jessica: It's sobering, it's crazy, it's familiar. That's the creepiest thing. She's like everyone we know.

[16:30] Meg: Exactly. I'm going to do one more footnote just on AIDS, which, of course, we will need to address many times in this podcast because it was so much a part of the 80s in New York. But as we have mentioned it just now, this is a quote from Michael Musto, who we all love.

[16:51] Jessica: Was he writing for the Village Voice? Is this from the Village Voice?

[16:55] Meg: This is not from the Village Voice. This was an interview that I transcribed.

[17:00] Jessica: Okay, so Michael Masto, beloved New York character and journalist and very much Bon Vivant, man about town.

[17:10] Meg: Perfect. Yes. So this is a quote from him. AIDS wasn't even called AIDS until 1984. At first, it was known as all sorts of things, like grid or the gay cancer. But immediately, myself and the rest of the gay community. I pretty much just stopped having sex. Might have been why people stopped going to the clubs, too. It was so terrifying when you eventually realized you could get this from one encounter and it was a certified death sentence. I mean, basically, if you got AIDS, you died a grisly death. And then this is from Dr. Dimitri Duskalakis, who was the Deputy Commissioner for the Division of Disease Control of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. Can you imagine that on a business card? Quote, “the thing to remember is that violent acts against people living with HIV were at some point, by law, condoned and that you were able to say that because this person was potentially transmitting HIV to you, it was actually a way to please something about an act of violence. So really the stigma went deep and the stigma went into law and regulation. I think that undue fear related to HIV status really continues even in a universe where we know that individuals who are treated and whose viral load is undetectable, can't transmit.” And I'm also going to say as a little bit of a footnote, all of the articles I read about Connie that were written in 1984, around that period of time, did a whole bunch of shaming. She had this coming. She brought this on herself. And I tried very hard to tell this story without that kind of bias, because it shouldn't be there.

[19:01] Jessica: No, it should not. And do you think that we've evolved past that?

[19:06] Meg: I wouldn't say that we're past it, but I do think that it's a good sign that when I read those articles, I can see it so clearly when I'm not sure I would have then.

[19:20] Jessica: No, certainly not.

[19:21] Meg: So there's progress. I'll say that there's progress.

[19:23] Jessica: All right, thank you. That was fascinating and grizzly.

[19:28] Meg: Yeah. Most of my stories will be, I'm afraid, but that's okay.

[19:32] Jessica: I like it. All right. Thank you.

[19:34] Meg: All right. Okay, Jessica, I am very excited to hear what you have to share with me today.

[19:42] Jessica: Well, is it a coincidence that we both chose to talk about sex for our first episode? Or at least in your case, the downfall of a sex worker? In my case, it is sex education, New York style.

[20:00] Meg: Oh, dear.

[20:01] Jessica: Yes. So, I am fascinated by how kids in other parts of the country learned about sex when they were in their pre-teens and teens. And I don't mean the mechanics of it. I mean the real stuff. Well, in New York City, we had a very robust cable access world.

[20:31] Meg: Oh, no. I know what you're going to talk about.

[20:33] Jessica: Oh, yes. Cable access is for those who don't know. When cable TV was first brought to New York City and I think to other major metropolitan areas, the FCC required that there were two channels left open for citizens to broadcast without having to pay or have commercials or anything like that. Whatever it was, they wanted to. So you had no end of nutters who were doing like there were psychics and there was a guy who would play the piano and take requests on a phone line and he had a photograph of his mother on the piano who he serenaded with all of these songs. And apparently there was a lot of Frank Sinatra that got sung on that show. And there were religious folk, just all kinds of stuff. And this is not in the 80s, but later on, even this sort of performance arty stuff. There was this one guy, I have to admit, I really loved him. He had this crazy character who sounded like a woman from Queens called Mrs. Mouth. And he would film himself upside down. So his chin had a wig on it, he had drawn eyes and his mouth, like, tons of lipstick and across his nose and the top of his face was a scarf. So when it was all inverted, it looked like a crazy little puppet lady who was wearing some weird dress.

[22:18] Meg: And all these people had to do was just sign up for a slot.

[22:22] Jessica: Just sign up. So Mrs. Mouse would come on and be like, “So, here's what I think is important today.” And this was normal. So that's setting the stage for the next phase, which is leased access. Now, leased access was bans on the cable, I think that's what you call it, where you had to have advertising and it was more, for lack of a better way of expressing it, which you'll soon realize is totally the wrong word, but it was more conventional in its financial setup. So it was a little more but in New York City, they were those leased access channels were entirely populated by real sex weirdos, which was fantastic if you were growing up in New York City anywhere between 1977 and I think, like 94. You had a veritable poopoo platter of sexual nonsense to look at and warp you for the rest of your known days.

[23:44] Meg: And we didn't have the Internet. No, it was, this is our entree to perversion.

[23:50] Jessica: It was magazines or leased access. And from my point of view, as with regular cable access, least access was notable, yes, for the sex, but even more so the people who brought you the programming. So I'm going to talk a little bit about what it was like to be a kid learning about sex from these maniacs and who those maniacs were and what became of them.

[24:23] Meg: Okay?

[24:23] Jessica: Okay, so let me set the stage. It's 1980. It's a slumber party. Of course, it's boys and girls because I went to a very progressive school before I went to our prep school.

[24:38] Meg: Okay?

[24:38] Jessica: So we're all there. I believe it was Francesca. I'm not going to say her last name. Francesca's birthday party.

[24:46] Meg: Okay.

[24:47] Jessica: And back in the day, there was no remote control for the cable boxes. It was all done manually. And before we even had a dial on the cable boxes we had a long box that had push buttons. And on the side there were like twelve of them. And on the side was a little lever that could go into one of three positions.

[25:11] Meg: Okay?

[25:12] Jessica: And position one would be the numbers. So, like channel eleven, whatever. Second position was, you started to get into the cable stuff and you had letters that I think went up to, I think, J might have been the last one. So the very last one was the infamous Channel J.

[25:37] Meg: Channel J.

[25:38] Jessica: Channel J. And the minute that parents went to bed, the second and we were so young and dumb, of course we didn't give them like half an hour to get settled and make sure they were asleep. The second they disappeared, everyone went to sit right in front of the television and one poor soul had to stand at the cable console. And if the other kids looked like they were absolutely having a nervous breakdown that was usually the sign that a parent was coming in or had come in and you'd better turn the channel pretty quick. So we would wait for them to go to bed. And the top three purveyors for us early to mid 80s sexual sensibility were Robin Bird, Al Goldstein.

[26:39] Meg: That's who I remember.

[26: 41] Jessica: and Ugly George.

[26:42] Meg: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I just had such a flashback. I had forgotten about Ugly George. Oh, my God.

[26:46] Jessica: So here's a typical experience. Now, Al Goldstein had a publication called Screw Magazine and he decided to, not, unlike Martha Stewart, branch out into omnimedia. So Al Goldstein had this leased access show called, Midnight Blue, which I found very confusing as a kid because there wasn't that much porn being shown.

[27:17] Meg: It was like guys in a hot tub? Right?

[27:20] Jessica: Well yes, they had some episodes at Plato's Retreat, right. Which was the heterosexual bathhouse, basically. But he would have nude interviews. And I remember just looking at these people lounging around in their weird 70s office chairs and wondering, is this what it is? Is this what adulthood is? Just hanging around naked, having a conversation about, like, Henry Kissinger? Is that what it is? And then occasionally being like, oh, yes, I'll be performing at Show World next Thursday. Please catch my pole act. So it was a little confounding. And because of the need for advertisements on leased access they would always have ads for escort services. Cut to Connie Crispell. The escort services had these incredibly hardcore explicit advertisements. So, unlike regular programming, we lived for the ads.

[28:31] Meg: Oh, man.

[28:32] Jessica: So that was Al Goldstein. The other great thing about Al Goldstein was he couldn't ever not be Al Goldstein. So he was the fattest man ever. He was just so very large and he chomped on a big wet cigar and he would lean in and with his inimitable Brooklyn accent, harass whoever was opposite him. But then he would end the show with a complete non sequitur. That was the ‘fuck you’ rant. And all that it would be was Al being the pettiest jerk on the planet. And he would call out someone who had slighted him, like at a deli or like he got a squished donut at the donut shop. And he would launch into a tirade, complete with spittle flying, and he would lean farther and farther into the camera. And finally, as the denouement, shriek while he raised his middle finger, so “Donut shop of Massapequa. Fuck you.” So you can actually, if you think about it, it's kind of brilliant. It's performance art. It is, in my opinion, looking back on it.

[29:58] Meg: It must be kinda therapeutic for him.

[29:59] Jessica: He had a catharsis. I mean, every single episode there was Al Goldstein having his sexual catharsis and then exercising whatever his socioeconomic issues were. It was great. So that was Midnight Blue. Not to be missed, but what came on before Midnight Blue was Robin Bird. And Robin Bird, let me just give you another quick little thing about Al Goldstein. Al Goldstein was no dope. Originally a Williamsburg, Brooklyn boy, long before hipsters descended on Williamsburg, when it was all Orthodox Jews and steakhouses and more Orthodox Jews, he wound up going to Pace University, where he was the head of the debate team, hence the ‘fuck you’ tirade. Head of the debate team. He was a journalist. He was a photo journalist. He was put in jail in Cuba for taking photos of Fidel Castro's brother. Bananas, right? And did a lot of really interesting things and then wound up with this ongoing, like is it a show? Is it catharsis? Is it therapy? Yes, to all of the above.

[31:19] Meg: Right.

[31:19] Jessica: So another New York Jew like me, Robin Cohen. Well, she was originally Robin Cohen. She became Robin Byrd with a Y. Now, Robin Cohen went to Baruch University, part of the City College of New York system, and was a Business and Marketing major. Now, she at one point, like our friend Connie, had to make some extra money and wound up modeling, nude modeling for art classes. I do not know how we get from point A to point B, but there was a quick movement into performing in porn.

[32:06] Meg: Okay.

[32:06] Jessica: And we bring up one of our favorite topics here, which is I can't really call her a porn star, but she wasn't, I mean, to say a working actress in porn seems so odd, but there she was. But she had not really reached the apex of her potential. That came with leased access. Now, Robin Byrd, I have a feeling that she and Connie Crispell must have crossed paths. Robin Byrd hosted a show called the Robin Byrd Show that was famous, she was famous for appearing in a black crocheted bikini, otherwise nude. Very tan. Very, very tan. And she would lie on a round, I believe it was round, bed with a red silk sheet on it. Behind her on the wall, a big neon heart that said, The Robin Byrd Show. And she would invite her viewers to sit back, think of your loved ones, get comfortable, because here comes Joey Bagadonuts appearing at Show World on Tuesday and Thursday. Check out his act. And here would come Joey, who would then perform a striptease. Now, yes.

[33:25] Meg: Wait and Robin is just lying on the bed?

[33:27] Jessica: She's lying on the bed.

[33:28] Meg: She’s watching, too, like we are.

[33:30] Jessica: Yes. So the camera pans over and he's now in front of a little curtain doing his dance to full nudity. And she would have guys, she would have girls. But she would treat them with so much respect, as though this was like PBS and bringing the great actors of Broadway to her viewers. So, she would introduce them with all of the pomp and circumstance, as if Len Cariou, who had just popped over from the Sweeney Todd Theater. So she would introduce them and then they would all sort of like frisky puppies play with each other in the background while Robin was sort of trying to interview them. And it was very evident, even to children, that they were all either really dumb or on drugs because their conversational skills in no way match Robin’s. So that was the second part of sex education, was the presentation of the bodies. And by the way, unlike what came later in the later eighties and nineties, the bodies were not pumped up with silicone or what, they were.

[34:56] Meg: They were very natural. That’s what I remember.

[35:00] Jessica: By natural you mean, oh, there's a bullet hole scar on you right there. But, yes, they were quite floppy, quite natural. They were bodies that you would expect to see anywhere. They were not workout nathans. So that was Robin Byrd. So our first part of our sex education was Al Goldstein with hardcore porn ads, Plato's Retreat and casual nudity, followed by Robin Byrd's more animated nudity. And then she would end her show. Every show ended with her novelty song. That's how I saw it written up online, novelty song. ‘Baby, Let Me Bang Your Box.’ Where she would simulate sex with each one of her guests.

[35:53] Meg: Simulate how?

[35:58] Jessica: As one might. There was some grinding, there was some bumping, there was slithering. But then her piece de resistance was that she would grab the penis of whoever was closest to her and poke herself in the eye with it. So this was obviously inspired by The Three Stooges, as well as, whatever the porn of the day was that was not on leased access. So that's Robin Byrd. And then the third one, which was probably most instructive for us kids in the early 80s in New York City, was Ugly George. Ugly George was a pioneer because he carried his entire broadcasting system on his back. On a backpack. So he had his tape, whatever his recordings were, and he had his video and his audio, and he had a microphone, and he looked relatively normal, very sweaty. But he wasn't, like, truly ugly. I think by Ugly George, he meant maybe his soul was a little ugly. I don't know. It was just a low self esteem for George. But George was from Queens. And how do I know this? Because my cousin knew him growing up in Jackson Heights.

[37:22] Meg: Oh, my Lord.

[37:23] Jessica: Yes. So Ugly George would roam the streets of New York City, most notably near Times Square, and would approach young women and ask them to take their clothes off. And if they did, and they would usually scurry into an alley to do this, he would then keep pushing them to see, well, can I touch you? Can I do this? Can I do that?

[37:48] Meg: Wow.

[37:50] Jessica: Now, that was instructive, because that could actually happen in New York. So we knew, stay away from the Ugly Georges of the world. But he seemed pretty innocuous, not someone you'd really want to deal with.

[38:06] Meg: But things like that escalate.

[38:06] Jessica: Well, yea they do escalate.

[38:07] Meg: Who was the guy in the 90s who sold all the videotapes of girls showing their tops?

[38:14] Jessica: Oh, yes, yes! Joe Francis. Yeah, he's like a Joe Francis. Exactly. He was Girls Gone Seety, okay. It wasn't even Girls Gone Wild. Well, it was ‘Girls Gone: Please Make Better Life Choices.’ So there you go. Those are the three jewels in the crown of leased access sex education in New York City in the seventies and eighties.

[38:45] Meg: Thank you, Jessica. You have just taken me down quite the memory lane and I appreciate it.

[38:51] Jessica: Do you now?

[38:53] Meg: I do! I'm going to be like googling all these people now. I hadn't thought of Ugly George for like 30 years.

[38:57] Jessica: I don't know about George's college record, but from my recollections from my cousin, he did attend. And I think he was Greek. I don't think he was Jewish, but we'll have to look that up.

[39:12] Meg: George is. There are lots of Greek people named George. That make sense.

[39:15] Jessica: Yes. So if you meet a Gen Xer from New York and happen to have sex with them and wonder why they are so very odd, now you know.

[39:32] Meg: Thank you for joining us for the pilot episode of Desperately Seeking the 80s: New York edition.

[39:37] Jessica: And please join us next week for more Rip from the headlines, Pop Culture fun and madness. Thanks, Meg.

[39:45] Meg: Thanks, Jessica.