[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City.

[00:28] Meg: Where we still live and where we are now, podcasting about New York City in the 80s. I focus on ripped from the headlines.

[00:36] Jessica: And I handle Pop culture. Shall we Meg?

[00:41] Meg: Let's. So, Jessica, I want to dive into my story because it's actually a rather involved one, and I didn't want to leave out any details.

[00:51] Jessica: No engagement question?

[00:53] Meg: Oh, no, no. There'll be a little bit of an engagement question, but before we do that, we have to send a huge thank you and congratulations to Michelle, Kristen, and Sophie, who won our giveaway of the Desperately Seeking the 80s playlist, volume one.

[01:11] Jessica: Yay. That is awesome.

[01:13] Meg: And it was so much fun putting this playlist together, which only these three ladies have access to right now.

[01:19] Jessica: Amazing.

[01:20] Meg: I know.

[01:22] Jessica: And it's so good. Yes, I'm aware of that. You outdid yourself. I have to admit, I had not a single correction. I was so delighted. I was shocked.

[01:34] Meg: I thought you would be so opinion. Anyway, so I'm also and now I'm looking forward to volume two, but one thing at a time.

[01:40] Jessica: Wait. Speaking. I I learned something today really quickly. Yeah? About this is 80s music. I just read that Boy George was in Bow Wow Wow, and he left because Vivienne Westwood wouldn't let him dress himself. Oh.

[01:56] Meg: She wanted to be his.

[01:58] Jessica: Well, Malcolm McLaren managed Bow Wow Wow, and Malcolm McLaren had Vivienne Westwood do the clothing for any band that he was managing. And so Boy George was like, I think not.

[02:10] Meg: Yeah, I'm my own stylist, but thanks. So you might remember, Jessica, that last week I talked about the Tompkins Square Park riot.

[02:20] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[02:22] Meg: So this is part two. I know it's been a busy week for you, so you might not have remembered that, but now I am. So my engagement question is, what was your biggest takeaway from the discussion about Tompkins Square Park? Did you have memories? Were there things that you remembered about the riot? I don't know. Did you learn things?

[02:49] Jessica: Well, this is sort of it's literally Tompkins Square Park adjacent.

[02:54] Meg: Thompson's.

[02:55] Jessica: What did I say?

[02:56] Meg: Thom - Tompkins

[02:56] Jessica: Tompkins. Hi. Have we met? My name is Jessica Jones. It's very nice to meet you. I live in New York. Who am I?

[03:02] Meg: The Thompson Twins?

[03:02] Jessica: I was at yes - get out of my head

[03:04] Meg: It's the Culture Club that -

[03:06] Jessica: Exactly.

[03:07] Meg: Distracted you for a minute.

[03:08] Jessica: I'm feeble it's sad. So in the 90s, I used to run around in that neighborhood, and you lived there, and I learned something very important about do you remember the club Niagara? That's right on the corner of Tompkins.

[03:26] Meg: I don't I can't say that I do. Anyway, maybe if I looked at the.

[03:31] Jessica: Building with the drug issues in that park so it was so much a part of the culture of that area that it affected life generally in that area. And I remember I had been at Niagara dancing and getting stupid until, like, two in the morning. Something really like I needed to get a cab and go home. And all these cab drivers were just whizzing past even though they had their lights on. I was like, what the hell is going on? So finally someone stopped for me, and I was like, Why does no one stop here? And he said, too many drug addicts, too much cocaine coming out of that club. There are too many violent people getting into our taxis, so no one stops near Tompkins Square Park.

[04:21] Meg: It's so interesting because these neighborhoods are just not far away from each other, but every single one has its own identity based on what year you're talking about. Very interesting.

[04:33] Jessica: That was what it reminded me of.

[04:35] Meg: Okay, well, today I'm going to tell a story that happened exactly one year after the riot. So the riot happened in 1988, and this happened exactly one year after and over a very brief period of time. I want you to keep that in mind two months from beginning to end.

[04:58] Jessica: Really?

[04:58] Meg: My only source is a Village Voice article that was written in 1989. I went on Wikipedia just to fill in some gaps, but this was an extensive article.

[05:09] Jessica: Okay.

[05:11] Meg: When Sylvia first met Daniel, she and her boyfriend Shawn were living in a tiny two bedroom at 700 east 9th street and Avenue C, a block east of Tompkins Square Park. If you can picture, the couple had just moved from Morris Plains, New Jersey, and they met Daniel Rakowitz.

[05:31] Jessica: Sounds about right, I think.

[05:33] Meg: Rackowitz?

[05:34] Jessica: Yeah. Okay, I'll go with it.

[05:35] Meg: A 28 year old part time cook when he sold them pot a year and a half later. And this is when our little timeline begins, our two month timeline. In July 1989, Sylvia and Shawn ran into Daniel in Tompkins Square and he told them he was sleeping in the park. He offered to cover half of Sylvia and Shawn's $500 a month rent, so they invited him to move in. Nowadays, that apartment goes for $2,600 a month. After a couple of years of being homeless, Daniel was delighted to have a kitchen. In the mornings, he would head to the Key Food on 4th and B and ask strangers to buy him chicken, potatoes, butter, bread, vegetables. He would return to the apartment with 40 pounds of food, cook it all up, and bring it to Tompkins Square Park to feed the homeless people living there in tents. He'd do this two to three times a week. He was kind and generous to the displaced people there. He knew what it felt like to not have a home. He also had other personality traits. He was obsessed with watching television and introduced himself as the Lord of Lords.

[06:50] Jessica: Well, isn't that sort of a bit of a tip off? That's like, bad roommate material.

[06:57] Meg: According to Sylvia, he said, quote, by 1996, I'm going to be President, and by 1992, my followers are going to take over. And if they think Hitler was something, they haven't seen anything yet.

[07:11] Jessica: That's charming.

[07:12] Meg: Sylvia would respond, quote "Daniel, you have your beliefs, and I have mine. I don't impose them on you, so please don't impose yours on me." Jerry the Peddler, a local squatter and community leader, called him a "classic nut." Quote "He had all the symptoms. He had sudden fits of rage. He had delusions of grandeur. He didn't like touching people. He had fantasy followers. He was constantly going up to women. Constantly. He never seemed to pick up that many." I should probably say, now that this gets really graphic.

[07:45] Jessica: I was waiting for the trigger warning.

[07:50] Meg: I meant yeah, I mean, if you don't like really graphic descriptions of awful, most foul, then this is not the episode for you.

[08:01] Jessica: All right.

[08:02] Meg: Daniel grew up in Rockport, Texas, and became convinced he was a god. When he was five years old, his parents tried putting him in a psych ward. He was put on Ritalin and given shock treatments. He never forgave his parents for this and was essentially estranged from his family. When he made his way to New York in 1985, he was a well known figure around the park. He tried to start a cult in a squat on Suffolk Street. His plan was to have five children with each of 25 women so he could create his master race. But he had a hard time finding converts.

[08:39] Jessica: It's funny until it's not. I'm just going to giggle for a while and then be horrified. Continue.

[08:44] Meg: And are you sensing a theme?

[08:47] Jessica: A little bit. Anyway, that people who are murderers are crazy within Daniel?

[08:55] Meg: Within Daniel? Yeah.

[08:56] Jessica: Well, clearly there's a theme, but I don't want to say anything in case it ruins your flow.

[09:03] Meg: All right.

[09:03] Jessica: Continue.

[09:04] Meg: So in late July 1989 so a couple of weeks, two weeks after Daniel moved in with Sylvia and Shawn, they broke up and Shawn moved out. Sylvia decided she wanted to leave the city and changed the lease over to Daniel. But when the lease changed hands, the rent would go up to $605 a month. Also, there is some concern that the landlord wouldn't be so thrilled with Daniel, this skinny, bearded, long haired drifter man. Maybe he wouldn't want him on the lease. So they found Monika Beerle to be his new roommate, pay half the rent, and take over the lease. Monika was a 26 year old modern dancer from Switzerland who studied at the Martha Graham School and danced at Billy's Topless. One friend said of her, quote, "She was a pretty smart girl, pretty professional, and had a good head on her shoulders. She wasn't stupid. She wasn't crazy." So Monika moved in the first week of August. Sylvia was still really close with Daniel and helped him clean the place up for Monika, and when she moved in, it was immaculate, and everything seemed to be going well. Monika and Daniel both reported to Sylvia that they had slept together once.

[10:23] Jessica: Oh, God.

[10:24] Meg: Monika acted like it wasn't a big deal. But Daniel, according to Sylvia, fell in love. And when Monika called off their sexual relationship almost immediately and proceeded to bring other men back to the apartment, Daniel was very upset. Monika's friends were alarmed by Daniel's jealous behavior and encouraged her to kick him out. After all, she was on the lease now. Daniel was panicked. He begged her not to throw him out. Quote, "I have nowhere to go." It was around this time that Daniel started telling everyone he knew that he was going to kill Monika. I got to say, this is part of the story he told everyone he was going to do it. Everyone. And they all knew the same people, and no one took him seriously. I mean, maybe because he was kind of acted like a kook or whatever, but no one took him seriously.

[11:22] Jessica: Oh, God. Okay.

[11:24] Meg: On August 12, Sylvia told Monika, quote, "Daniel said he's going to kill you."

[11:31] Jessica: Oh, good on Sylvia.

[11:33] Meg: Okay, this is a quote from Sylvia. And she just kind of laughed. Monika just kind of laughed, and she went up to Daniel in front of me and said to Daniel, I'll kill you first.

[11:44] Jessica: Oh, girl. Oh, no.

[11:46] Meg: Also, Monika was also not taking this very seriously.

[11:51] Jessica: Oh, Monika.

[11:52] Meg: On Thursday, August 17, Daniel walked Sylvia to the Path train and told her he couldn't take Monika anymore and he planned to kill her. On Friday, he asked Sylvia to come back to the city to help him get rid of the body. Sylvia said, quote, "Daniel, are you crazy? I ain't gonna help you with anything. And he was really nervous, and he was so terrified of being homeless." Sylvia didn't get back to the city until Saturday night. Quote, "I could see from the street that the apartment was dark, and I knew something was wrong, but I went up there anyway. I was coming up the stairs, and I heard Daniel's TV, and it was really loud. And I opened the door, and his TV was in the kitchen, and it was very dim. I went back to my room to make sure my stuff was okay, because I told him I was leaving it there for a while until I got it all out. And Monika's door was closed. And I went and knocked on Monika's door, and nobody answered. So I went to the kitchen, and on the stove there was a pot, and in the pot was Monika's head."

[12:57] Jessica: Oh, God.

[13:00] Meg: She was all burnt up, and her eyes were closed. Then Sylvia peeked into the bathroom.

[13:06] Jessica: I feel like he seared her first and then put her okay, sorry. Go ahead.

[13:10] Meg: Then Sylvia peeked into the bathroom and saw a rib cage in the tub. And hightailed it out of there. She went to a phone booth on Avenue A.

[13:22] Jessica: Did you see Daniel in the apartment?

[13:24] Meg: No, Daniel was not there.

[13:25] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[13:26] Meg: So she goes to a phone booth on Avenue A and called Daniel's beeper. He met her in the park and told her what happened. He said Monika told him Friday night that if he wasn't out in the morning, she had a friend with a pit bull who was going to get him out. So he went up behind her and with an extension cord, strangled her with a cord and then with his hands. Then he stomped on her head ten times and stabbed her over 30 times. Then he used her chest as a carving board. He said he ate her brains.

[13:59] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[14:04] Meg: So Sylvia has this conversation with Daniel in the park. A few days later. You heard me right. A few days later, Sylvia ran into Daniel again.

[14:18] Jessica: Did Sylvia give any input on her? I don't know her process at that moment.

[14:27] Meg: She liked Daniel a lot, and she didn't think that it was going to be in his best interest to be arrested.

[14:34] Jessica: Okay, so she's a nut ball as well. Okay.

[14:41] Meg: Not to be judgy.

[14:42] Jessica: Not to be judgy, but let's judge. All right, go ahead.

[14:47] Meg: A few days later, Sylvia ran into Daniel again, and he said it was starting to smell in the apartment.

[14:54] Jessica: Oh, what a shock.

[14:56] Meg: Sylvia warned him that if he didn't clean it up, he'd be put in a psychiatric hospital. A couple of days after that, Daniel invited Sylvia over.

[15:06] Jessica: This is the part that I remember.

[15:10] Meg: He said everything was clean. And it was, except that Monika's skull was there. Quote, "She looks more beautiful than ever, Daniel said. Then he got angry and spit on it and said, well, hey, bitch, at least you'll always have a home."

[15:25] Jessica: Oh, God. This is so Buffalo Bill. This is so wrong.

[15:30] Meg: Sylvia told him she'd never turn him in. She even slept over at the apartment a few nights. She was worried people wouldn't understand Daniel. He had been abused as a child, and really, he was in a prison of his own mind. It wouldn't help to lock him up. Shawn. You remember Shawn, Sylvia's boyfriend? He dropped by on August 22 to buy some pot, and he smelled the death. And there was a rumor floating around the park. Quote, "He fettered to the homeless, said Frank, an East Fifth Street resident. The homeless in the park were going, yeah, Daniel gave us soup yesterday, and they were goofing on it, but they were pretty much grossed out." But no one turned him in. It wasn't until Daniel moved out of the apartment to live with a woman uptown that Shawn tipped off the building super. Detectives browbeat Sylvia into spilling the beans, and 5 hours later, they arrested Daniel, and he confessed. He told the detective, I need some help he then led police to the Port Authority storage area where he had stashed her bones.

[16:42] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[16:43] Meg: In 1991, Daniel Rakowitz was found not guilty by reason of insanity. And in 2004, a jury found him to be no longer dangerous, but still mentally ill and determined he should remain at the Kirby Forensic Psychiatric Center on Wards Island, where he is to this day. Sylvia told The Village Voice, "People are going to think I'm crazy. You know, what Daniel did what Daniel did because of what society had done to Daniel. I hope this opens people's eyes to the fear people have of being homeless, especially when they do have some type of mental illness."

[17:27] Jessica: Well, that's a new kind of outreach. They're boiling the skin right off your bones, eat it, and then be like, oh, by the way, it's a social problem.

[17:39] Meg: There's this strange what's up with Sylvia?

[17:43] Jessica: No, Sylvia is an accomplice. Sylvia is clearly an accomplice. I want to know why she was not prosecuted as, like, an accessory after the fact or an accomplice. I mean, she heard he's going to kill you. Maybe that's why she's not, because she told Monika. But Monika can't testify to that, so who knows?

[18:08] Meg: There does seem to be this naivete about mental illness, like, oh, he's just kind of a kook. No one actually thought he was going to do anything about it. And now I think if we met anyone who talked in that way, we would be like, we just can't predict how that person's going to behave, and that person absolutely does need some help immediately.

[18:33] Jessica: Well, funny you should say that, because I was reading something recently, and I think it was research for this podcast, but I can't recall because, you know, I have memory problems. But with that in mind, I read something about oh, my God, I think I even talked about it on this show. Good Lord. Meg. Things are not good in this sector about the way that forensic psychiatrists had been developing their area of practice, their skill sets and understanding why people oh, yes, I remember I was talking about this with John Lennon that they were figuring out where people were likely to be killed rather than who the killers were. But did you ever see Mindhunter? Yeah. Okay.

[19:24] Meg: Such a great show. Of course, I've read the book that.

[19:28] Jessica: It's based on, and I'm sure you can shed more light than I can. So that was happening only like, a decade before what you're describing as this naivete letting this nutbag run amok and think about how much we've learned societally.

[19:44] Meg: About criminal the criminally insane.

[19:47] Jessica: I was trying to come up, it was sounded so Batman in my head, and I was like, is that the right phrase? Yes. The criminally insane. Pretty amazing.

[19:55] Meg: It really is. And I also think perhaps if you had met Daniel in any other part of the city, it might have set off alarms. But there was something about this particular community of people that was very accepting of eccentricity in a way that it acted as a cover for what was ultimately something very dangerous.

[20:16] Jessica: I agree. But there's also people are taught to not listen to their gut.

[20:23] Meg: Oh, that's so true.

[20:25] Jessica: And women particularly are taught well, traditionally we're taught, do not listen to your gut. You know, if someone says that they're a nice person, let them in. So I think that that's a contributor to this. Like, you know, someone says he's going to kill you to your face. What could possibly motivate you to say haha? It's because you have no faith in your fight or flight.

[20:54] Meg: You're overreacting. He's harmless.

[20:57] Jessica: Think about all the cops that you've talked about who have been like, don't worry, your husband's just gone out for a pack of cigarettes. He'll be right back to modulate. Culturally, yes, you don't worry your pretty little head. Don't worry because you're a woman. You're most likely an hysteric, right? You're hysterical. You're overreacting. You're blowing this out of proportion. What are some of the other fun phrases? Don't be crazy.

[21:32] Meg: The fact that Sylvia is so eager to come up with reasons why he would do something so horrific and borderline blaming the victim troubled me.

[21:43] Jessica: Well, I think she sounds like she has been. I mean, number one, she sounds like a banana. So she's got some cuckoo cachu going on in her skull as well. Who knows skull? What skull she still has in her brain pan. She's got some chemicals. Let's just say she's neurally atypical in some way. She's also so quick with all of these abuse and whatever.

[22:11] Meg: He was abused as a child.

[22:14] Jessica: She probably was identifying with him. She was probably projecting and empathizing Sylvia. Look, Sylvia had a homeless man come into her house and she stayed there and did all of the things that she did. She was also a Tompkins Square Park resident. She was a banana. Like, let's just face it, Sylvia not a good bellwether of any kind.

[22:39] Meg: Right? But I think there are a lot of Sylvia's running around.

[22:44] Jessica: I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why I stay in my apartment all the time.

[22:52] Meg: Well, I know you are kind of looking forward to this story. I hope that I gave you all the grisly details you are looking for.

[22:59] Jessica: You know what's really weird? So you've done many stories where I've been, like, crawling under the desk and having a heart. I love this story so much. You are so hard to predict. And I've been thinking, like, why is it? And I think it's because I think about it cinematically. And the movie that rolls in my head is there's an absurdity to it. It's ridiculous that he's like, hi, I'm going to do this. Just boiling up some soap, going to feed it to the homeless. He just outdoes himself at every turn and it makes, like, the Gwyneth Paltrow head in the box in Seven. God, I know. Look like child's play, right? Because he's like, I may have severed the head, but then I'm going to boil it, and then I'm going to display the skull. Then I'm going to spit on this. I think it delights me because it packs everything in it's. Like the old Prego spaghetti sauce ad it's in there.

[24:10] Meg: And he does not walk amongst us, thank goodness. But he is just a mere half a mile away on Wards Island.

[24:18] Jessica: I'm frightened that you're going to start to become an amateur forensic psychiatrist, and you're going to start visiting these cuckoo birds.

[24:27] Meg: Never.

[24:28] Jessica: Oh, so you're clear that from afar.

[24:31] Meg: Is the best oh, as far as possible.

[24:33] Jessica: Okay, good.

[24:36] Meg: No, I mean, the fact that they're, like, he's still kind of crazy, but he's probably not dangerous.

[24:42] Jessica: That's what they were saying in the.

[24:45] Meg: Park about this guy. I do not trust any of you people. Keep him on Wards Island.

[24:53] Jessica: Lock him up. I love this story so much, and maybe it's also that I can imagine. I know exactly what Tompkins Square Park looked like at the time.

[25:03] Meg: Okay, Jessica, what you got?

[25:08] Jessica: All right, I have an engagement question for you.

[25:11] Meg: Okay, I'm ready.

[25:12] Jessica: When we were in high school, what kind of coat did you wear?

[25:16] Meg: Coat? The coat that comes to mind. I wore a peacoat, and I inherited a big black wool coat from my dad, which was amazing, and I left it in the American Museum of Natural History. It broke my friggin heart, you dummy. I know. It was the worst thing ever. I immediately realized I had left it behind, and it wasn't five minutes. Somebody had snatched it up.

[25:45] Jessica: Well, I'm glad that you said that that was the coat, because that's where we're going today. We're going to talk about vintage clothing.

[25:53] Meg: Okay.

[25:54] Jessica: And the role that vintage clothing has played in the style of New York and how the style of New York has affected style across the world. But here we go. So I had a really disturbing experience a couple of weeks ago. I decided to go looking for some vintage clothing, because, as you know, I collect vintage clothing and beautiful vintage clothing. I'm very interested in, like, 1900 through 1950. That's my era. So I decided to go downtown, and there are some stores I hadn't heard of before. I thought, oh, this is great. Do you know what they're selling, all of these vintage stores?

[26:39] Meg: What?

[26:40] Jessica: Clothing from the 80s and 90s

[26:44] Meg: Well, I do know that because Alice, my daughter, thrifts, and she comes home with things that look like they would at the be at the bottom of my drawer, like, 30 years ago.

[26:55] Jessica: Yeah. I was wearing some Chanel flats that I had inherited from my mother, like, basic ballet flats. And I was stopped in the store by multiple young people who were like, oh, my God, those are so like...these are the fustiest old lady shoes that have ever been like, what are you talking about? It's like the shoes. Remember the Pappagallo flats that The Nightingale-Bamford School administrators used to wear? It was at that level. And I was like, oh, my God, I don't even know what's happening. But I was thinking about what vintage was when we were in high school and how it really created a look for us and for our fellow Gen Xers. Does this bring yeah, I would say.

[27:42] Meg: What was vintage in our day was kind of like the Teri Garr character in After Hours describe for, I don't know, beehive haircut, 60s. Yeah. 50s and 60s tulle. That was kind of vintagey.

[27:58] Jessica: What Molly Ringwald's character had going on in Pretty in Pink with the 50s prom dress from her friend. And then she makes it into something.

[28:07] Meg: Annie Potts was her friend.

[28:10] Jessica: One of her best things she ever did was the receptionist in Ghostbusters traffic. And her unfailing attraction to Harold Raymis killed me. Yes. So vintage. I think of the same thing. And the look for our generation when we were in high school was that everyone was in black coats. Everything was overcoats. And those black coats were from I don't know if you're aware of this the 30s, 40s and 50s for the most part. So we were all flapping around in these men's coats, some of them were double breasted, and they had really high peaked lapels and all of that stuff and tangentially that was so the look. And I didn't realize that it was specific to New York or maybe Chicago as well, but definitely New York. That when I got to Kenyon College in 1987. I was wearing a long black coat like that, as were our other New York friends. And we would sit together in the dining hall, and the other kids called us the crows.

[29:18] Meg: They were not wearing that.

[29:21] Jessica: They were not interested in that at all. That was the neon Benetton like poofy coat. Yeah.

[29:31] Meg: Pictures of yeah.

[29:32] Jessica: Lots of parachute pants, kind of day glowy thing. Anyway, so that's what we were into. And so I started to look at the history of vintage clothing shopping in New York City. And I was fascinated because a woman who is no longer with us, but she started one of the first big vintage clothing stores in New York City. Her name was Harriet Love, and she was doing costuming for, she did for film. She did all of the costumes for the original 1970s The Great Gatsby.

[30:09] Meg: Oh.

[30:10] Jessica: And was horrified when everyone went into the fountain in that scene. She was like, damn it, those are beaded dresses. That was the real thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was absolutely horrified.

[30:21] Meg: That is such a gorgeous movie.

[30:23] Jessica: It's beyond beautiful. And she was talking about how vintage was so popular because, A. it was cheap, but B. in New York City, having a sense of the theatrical is exactly right. And that so many people who were living downtown who were buying vintage clothing, and it was really considered thrift/vintage at the time. They didn't have any money, it was cheap. And the idea of creating a costume out of your clothing was in line with how they spent their days and their evenings. So that was sort of the beginning. And then in the 80s, in the early 80s, our friend Madonna opened up the world of vintage to people who were not the crows like us.

[31:15] Meg: I love the idea that Madonna would be our friend.

[31:18] Jessica: I don't think do you think she'd like us?

[31:21] Meg: Yes. I don't know.

[31:22] Jessica: I don't think she'd like us very much. I think she'd be annoyed, but she just strikes me as someone who'd be annoyed a lot of the time. Yes, exactly. In Desperately Seeking Susan, she goes into the vintage store, Love Saves the Day, where she buys her fantastic boots and gives the jacket and all of that stuff.

[31:43] Meg: Love saves the Day, that's closed.

[31:45] Jessica: Closed. And that got a lot of people realizing, like, you don't have to wear something that's an outfit. You can have your own style and cobble something together. In the 60s, people were definitely looking at Victorian stuff. And so for us, yes, it was like 30s. 40s? 50s. There was another place called Alice Underground.

[32:12] Meg: Oh, absolutely. On the west side.

[32:13] Jessica: Yes. I still have a velvet jacket that I bought there. It's a little like, 30s thing. But anyway, so vintage style a very, very big part of New York and the New York look. When you were our age, were you buying anything vintage? If, you know, Alice Underground, what kind of things were you looking for?

[32:33] Meg: Absolutely. I kind of love that 50s dress look, and my body fits that well, so I was always looking for that shape.

[32:39] Jessica: Yeah.

[32:40] Meg: Clothing manufacturers were not making The Gap, Benetton. They were not making dresses that shape. So that was exciting. So I always had my eye open for those kinds of dresses, my entire life. Still do.

[32:54] Jessica: Well, you know who else really loved vintage and would go lurking and skulking around in The Village where these shops were, where there was a lot of 20s, 30s and 40s stuff? Take a guess.

[33:04] Meg: Cyndi Lauper.

[33:05] Jessica: Your friend Ralph Lauren. Oh, so if my friend your friend.

[33:12] Meg: Such illustrious friends.

[33:13] Jessica: If you take a good look at most of his designs since the 70s, really, which is when he began, most of his stuff is knocked off from vintage clothing. And my mother, who she had amazing style, had this jacket from the 40s with these unbelievable shoulder pads. It was army green wool, and she had, astrakhan lapels put on it, like, really amazing. It was used as part of the set dressing in the Ralph Lauren shop window. Yes. And so that's another way when you think about how vintage clothing it. Has permeated sort of the idea of American style. That's part of it. And then in the 80s as well, Vogue started looking at street fashion. And when Vogue started doing that and vintage again was big black coats, giant blazers. Do you remember that? We wore men's tuxedo jackets?

[34:24] Meg: Yes, absolutely.

[34:26] Jessica: And blazers, just huge, like, suit blazers or sport coats, and we would roll the sleeves up. And if I was lined in a really good set satin, you know..

[34:37] Meg: With a stripe or something like that, that was cool. I have an image of that, I'm sure. Yeah. No, there's no question. I was wearing stuff like that all through college, actually.

[34:44] Jessica: Well, if you look at the runway shows from the 80s, like Yohji Yamamoto, Claude Montana, Armani, they were all doing huge jackets, huge, drapey jackets.

[34:55] Meg: Well, the funny thing was, I was just too lazy to get it tailored. I don't even think it occurred to me. So of course, I was, like, walking around with something that was the size of a man, and of course it was like, falling off. That was the look. Right, but he was also out of laziness. Don't you think?

[35:10] Jessica: But yes, but we were teenagers. What teenagers are like, I'm going to go get this tailored.

[35:14] Meg: Well, that's my point.

[35:16] Jessica: Yeah, no, it was entirely organic to the yes, lazy. I don't know if it's teenage laziness, though, because you were so I vividly recall your look and your coat, and you always had these little cute shoes that looked retro. They looked like they could be from the 30s or 40s.

[35:33] Meg: I like Mary Jane's cute.

[35:37] Jessica: Yes. Ralph Lauren, Vogue. And what sort of makes me I'm not sad now, but I look at the way that vintage, because vintage for us growing up, was really about finding things. It was like an archeological dig. And I feel like the way that things are put together now, these stores that everyone knows what they have because they're selling stuff that's so recent. Of course, I think of the 80s and 90s as recent, and I know that your daughter does not, but that designer labels are known and they're a big deal, and they're still around. There's nothing that's like Lilians of Hackensack, like, the number of coats that have those kinds of labels in it is legion. That doesn't exist anymore. So it's like, oh, this is a Balenciaga. Oh, this is whatever. And this is just bizarre to me, concert t-shirts for, like, a Van Halen concert for $150.

[36:38] Meg: Are you kidding?

[36:39] Jessica: Oh, no. There are stores downtown where they specialize in concert tees and bands that, like, in a million years, no one would listen to. But the t-shirt looks good, so I'm not making this up. I saw a Stryper, do you remember Stryper?

[36:58] Meg: I do not.

[36:59] Jessica: They were a Christian rock band

[37:01] Meg: Oh, that's not anything to parade around.

[37:04] Jessica: No. It was not happening and they were so literal. They had, like, striped black and yellow outfits. Got it wrong. No self respecting lover of any music would ever be like, I'm going to wear a Stryper shirt. That's what it's about. Yeah. I just sort of despair, and I wish that Alice and her friends could sort of get redirected.

[37:32] Meg: Well, they were redirected into your mother's closet, if you recall.

[37:36] Jessica: That is..

[37:38] Meg: Alice, just to give some background.

[37:41] Jessica: Okay.

[37:43] Meg: When Jessica's mother passed away, she left all these beautiful vintage clothes, and my daughter went over and just had a field day and picked up I don't know how many suitcases of stuff. And then when she got home, she started giving them away to her friends, things that didn't quite fit exactly the way she wanted them. Other things she got tailored.

[38:04] Jessica: I still find it shocking that my mother was the size of a 17 year old girl.

[38:09] Meg: But there are a lot of 17 year old girls walking around right now in your mother's clothes.

[38:13] Jessica: I know, I know.

[38:13] Meg: Which I love.

[38:15] Jessica: The Sandra Dorfman Collection lives on the streets of New York. But the stuff that Alice loved, for the most part, was the 90s stuff and the 80s stuff. That's true. And when I was trying to get her to take that unbelievable 40s dress, remember, with the little sequins and all that, she was like, I don't get it.

[38:35] Meg: Yeah, well, that's like, for us more than it would be for her. She doesn't dress like that, but we would at that age. You know what I mean?

[38:42] Jessica: Yeah, well, of course, but I think it's time for the young people to say, you know what? I'm not going to pay $150 for this snot rag of a T-shirt with David Lee Roth leap and no bones. I mean, seriously, David, if you're listening, I love you, but give me a break. $150. Take that $150 and go find a white Edwardian dress and chop it up and do something cool to it, because it pains me. New York's status as a hub of style, not the fashion industry, style has diminished so radically, in my opinion.

[39:33] Meg: And you sound a little bit like I am a cranky old lady, old.

[39:38] Jessica: Old woman, shakes fisted cloud. That's me. Absolutely. I'm leaning into these whipper snappers, don't know, good quality. They feel the fabric, and they don't understand what a good schmatta is. But there's some days when I'm just kind of like, I need my reading glasses and a hair net because I'm just cranky and I'm going to stay in my apartment so no one boils my head. And I think that's a good rap, I think.

[40:19] Meg: Was that our crossover?

[40:22] Jessica: What? My crankiness and not wanting to have my head boiled?

[40:25] Meg: Yeah, boiled head.

[40:26] Jessica: Well, I don't know. Is like vintage hat boiled head. I know where we're going. No, I think we can find it. You know what it is?

[40:35] Meg: What?

[40:36] Jessica: All of those great vintage shops were in the East Village.

[40:40] Meg: Oh, yes. Not all of them, but not all.

[40:44] Jessica: Of them, but a whole lot of them.

[40:45] Meg: Love Saves the Day, for sure.

[40:47] Jessica: Yes. A whole lot of them were down.

[40:48] Meg: There and still are.

[40:50] Jessica: Yes. And I'm quite sure that what oh, my God. What was our murderer's name again?

[40:55] Meg: Daniel.

[40:56] Jessica: Daniel Rakowitz. Daniel and his friends were walking around in clothing that we would probably kill for right now.

[41:04] Meg: Very well done Jessica, I'm proud of you. Thank you.

[41:06] Jessica: That's the crossover.