[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:20] Jessica: I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live.

[00:29] Meg: And where we are currently podcasting about New York City in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:36] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:38] Meg: Shall we get started Jessica.

[00:39] Jessica: Why yes.

[00:44] Meg: Hey, Jessica.

[00:45] Jessica: Hey, Meg.

[00:46] Meg: Remember? So we took a week off.

[00:48] Jessica: Indeed we did. A lot of you had exciting travels.

[00:52] Meg: I did. And I am so happy to be back in New York. I've got to say, if you leave New York, you just want to come back.

[00:58] Jessica: Well, even from bonnie Scotland.

[01:01] Meg: Yes. I missed it.

[01:03] Jessica: Oh, well, you were very missed.

[01:05] Meg: And I love New York City in the summer, so there's that, too.

[01:08] Jessica: Yes.

[01:09] Meg: And I don't know if you remember, but when we left off, we promised that we would do a like a really cool episode.

[01:16] Jessica: Did we? We sure did. Cooler than most.

[01:19] Meg: Cooler than most.

[01:20] Jessica: I'm excited. So does this mean you've got something cool or something deeply disturbing?

[01:26] Meg: It's actually deeply disturbing, but that is my job.

[01:29] Jessica: No, look, I've learned to lean in on the level of disturbance.

[01:35] Meg: All right? And this one is especially disturbing. So shall we?

[01:42] Jessica: I'm just going to get under the desk here. Rock back and forth.

[01:48] Meg: Seriously, I'm very interested to hear your response to this, because when I learned more about this case that I only knew like just dribs and drabs about before I did the research on it.

[02:05] Jessica: I.

[02:06] Meg: Had a very strong response, and I'm very interested to hear what you were.

[02:09] Jessica: Well, that's one thing I never have is a strong response.

[02:11] Meg: That's yeah. And I was thinking, like, what will Jessica think? So I'm excited to hear.

[02:17] Jessica: I'm very excited and trepidacious, so begin.

[02:20] Meg: Now, usually, I don't know if you've noticed, but I really try and use sources from the actual time period. I did not do that this time.

[02:30] Jessica: Really? Why ever not?

[02:33] Meg: I used sources that had a retrospective view on it rather than pieces that were written at the time. And I think you will know why when we tell the whole story.

[02:45] Jessica: All right, I'm excited. This is cool. Go ahead.

[02:47] Meg: All right. So it's a New York Post article written in 2012. New York Times article written in 2012, the 25th anniversary of the incident, the Retro Report, which is a mini documentary that The New York Times produced that you can find on YouTube and Essence magazine. On November 28, 1987, the Saturday after Thanksgiving, a 15 year old girl was discovered barely conscious outside an apartment complex in Wappingers Falls, New York, which is in Dutchess County, about an hour and a half outside of the city. Tawana Brawley was in a trash bag. She was smeared with animal feces. The inward and bitch were scrawled on her body in charcoal. KKK was carved into her shoe. Her pants were burned in the crotch area. She's taken to the emergency room where her mother and aunt tell authorities Tawana has been missing for four days, since before Thanksgiving. A detective from the Sheriff's Juvenile Aid Bureau tries to interview her, but she is unresponsive. Her family requests a black officer, and she communicates to this officer with nods and shrugs and written notes, that she has been raped repeatedly in a wooded area by six white men, one of whom was a police officer. She knew this because she saw his badge. She gives no other description of the assailants. Her family then gives a TV news interview. And Tawana says in this interview, very little. Just "he was a cop". That's in quotes. Attorneys - C. Vernon Mason, Alton Maddox. Do you remember from our earlier story about Alton?

[04:39] Jessica: Oh, which one was he?

[04:41] Meg: Alton defended one of Marla Hanson's attack.

[04:45] Jessica: That's right. Okay.

[04:47] Meg: And Reverend Al Sharpton become advisors and spokesman.

[04:51] Jessica: Reverend Al Sharpton, who was not an attorney.

[04:53] Meg: No, he is not an attorney. So the two attorneys are C. Vernon Mason and Alton Maddox, and the Reverend Al Sharpton become advisors to her and her family, and they are the spokespeople as well. So they are now the intermediaries between the Brawleys and really everyone, including the police, the media, everyone. On December 2, Fishkill police officer Harry Crist commits suicide.

[05:27] Jessica: Hmmm. I do not remember that detail.

[05:29] Meg: He's just a guy, a Fishkill police officer, and he committed suicide. And Al Sharpton then

[05:38] Jessica: And Fishkill is near...

[05:40] Meg: Yes, it's a next door county. And Al Sharpton then, in response to Harry Crist's suicide, announces that Crist was the cop who kidnapped and raped Tawana. And Dutchess County Prosecutor Steven Pagones says he was with Crist over those four days and gave the dead man an alibi. Al Sharpton, Maddox, and Mason then claim that Pagones participated in the kidnapping and rape as well. They also claim State Trooper Scott Patterson, who is a friend of Crist and Pagones was also one of her rapists. They claim that the Ku Klux Klan, the Irish Republican Army, and the Mafia are all conspiring with the US government to cover up what happened. So they're giving all of these press conferences. You can absorb that for a second.

[06:36] Jessica: This is a detail I definitely did not absorb at the time. So they're claiming that the Mafia, the IRA and the Klan are in cahoots.

[06:48] Meg: Are in cahoots with the government.

[06:52] Jessica: Yes. They're all cooperating together. Together with the federal government.

[06:59] Meg: Yes.

[07:00] Jessica: My favorite detail there is the IRA. I mean, I mean, this is now like a rabbi, a minister, and a horse walk into a bar. All right. Continue.

[07:13] Meg: All right. At this point, Bill Cosby offers a

[07:19] Jessica: hahahahah.

[07:22] Meg: Bill enters the scene here

[7:26] Jessica: And the entire story. Now we know what the tenor of this is. All right, go ahead.

[07:31] Meg: Bill Cosby offers a $25,000 reward for information on the case. Don King pledges $100,000 towards Tawana's education, and Mike Tyson gives her a $30,000 watch.

[07:46] Jessica: A watch.

[07:46] Meg: A watch. $30,000 watch. And that December more than 1000 people, including Louis Farrakhan.

[07:54] Jessica: Oh, Jesus.

[07:56] Meg: Well, you knew he was going to show up to this.

[07:57] Jessica: Look, people who are not from this area may not know who Farrakhan is. And I feel very strongly that we will have to dedicate an episode to that particular issue. Do you hear me restraining myself? I do. Okay.

[08:20] Meg: Oh, God. You're going to have a hard time moving forward. All right. So Louis Farrakhan was also at this March that was through the streets of Newburgh, New York in support of Tawana. Governor Mario Cuomo names attorney General Robert Abrams, special prosecutor in the case. But Al Sharpton, Vernon Mason and Alton Maddox denounced the appointment and tell the Brawleys they shouldn't cooperate with the investigation. So Tawana has not spoken to the police except for that one interview that she had where she didn't speak words, she used signs and she was barely coherent. And all we've heard is "it was a cop" from her TV interview. But she has not given an official interview interview to the police.

[09:12] Jessica: But the mouthpiece on the TV interview was one of her attorneys, or Sharpton.

[09:17] Meg: They saw that TV interview and that's what got them excited.

[09:21] Jessica: Oh, I see. Okay.

[09:22] Meg: So it was the TV interview that attracted the advisors. We'll call them. In February, a state grand jury is empanelled, but Tawana's mother, Glenda, refuses to testify and is ordered jailed for 30 days. So she takes religious sanctuary in a New York City church. Tawana is subpoenaed to appear, but she does not show up. Perry McKinnon, a former aide of Al Sharpton, comes forward in June to claim that Sharpton, Maddox and Mason didn't give a shit about Tawana and were using the case to, quote, take over the town. He says he heard Sharpton say the case would, quote, make them the biggest N words in New York. At the height of the controversy, a poll shows that 51% of black people think Tawana is lying, while 85% of white people think she is lying. The grand jury heard from 180 witnesses, saw 250 exhibits, and on October 6, 1988, after seven months, the grand jury releases its 170 page report that concludes that Brawley had not been kidnapped, assaulted or raped. In their decision, the grand jury laid out the inconsistencies of Tawana's story. So I'm going to list them. The rape kit results did not indicate sexual assault. There was no genital trauma and no semen. Despite claiming she had been held captive outdoors in the winter, she was not suffering from hypothermia and she was well nourished. And she had brushed her teeth. The racial epithets were written upside down and in a charcoal substance found under her nails. Her friends said they'd seen her at a party during those four days and the feces was identified as coming from her neighbor's dog. In spite of the grand jury's findings, many still maintain Tawana was telling the truth. Do the Right Thing. Spike Lee's 1989 movie about racial tensions in New York features a wall graffiti'd with Tawana told the Truth. If indeed she was not telling the truth, what was her motivation, you may ask? Well, there was quite a bit, and this is speculation, but there was quite a bit of reported domestic abuse in her household. Her mother had beaten her for running away before.

[11:45] Jessica: Wait, so that's not speculation.

[11:46] Meg: No, this is my speculation about her motivation.

[11:49] Jessica: Okay. But let's first say what the facts were.

[11:52] Meg: These are facts. I'm only saying facts.

[11:54] Jessica: No, I'm saying for my own ability to understand it. The facts are that there was absolutely.

[12:01] Meg: Domestic abuse in her household. No question about it. Her mother had beaten her for running away before. Her stepfather had stabbed his previous wife 14 times and eventually shot and killed his previous wife. When Tawana was arrested for shoplifting the previous May, her stepfather had beat her in the police station. And on the day she disappeared, Tawana had skipped school to visit her boyfriend in jail. Her boyfriend's mother, who was also at that visit, urged her to go home. But Tawana told her, the boyfriend's mother, it was too late. She was already in trouble. Neighbors also told the grand jury that Glenda Brawley, the mother, was concerned that they would have to return money they'd received if it came out that they were all lying. Sociologist Jonathan Markovitz says, quote, it is reasonable to suggest that Brawley's fear and the kinds of suffering that she must have gone through must have been truly staggering if they were enough to force her to resort to cutting her hair, covering herself in feces, and crawling into a garbage bag. Tawana has only spoken publicly at a news conference organized by Sharpton to say, quote, "I am not a liar and I am not crazy. I just want justice." It's important to remind ourselves that Tawana was 15 years old. Child Protective Services should have taken custody of her when she was discovered. They just sent her home. Then she would have had an unbiased advocate who would have protected her from those who did not have her best interest at heart, arguably, her family and Al Sharpton, Maddox and Mason. Also, the press published photos of her in the hospital as she was a minor. That is just outrageous.

[13:50] Jessica: Yes, that's insane.

[13:52] Meg: And frankly, that's one of the reasons why I didn't use those stories as my source. Because the stories from The Post and The Daily News published pictures of her, a child, in a hospital bed. In the aftermath, Alton Maddox was suspended by the State Supreme Court when he failed to appear at a disciplinary hearing about his conduct during the case.

[14:16] Jessica: When you say suspended, you mean his license was suspended?

[14:19] Meg: Yes, exactly. Pagones sued Sharpton, Maddox, Mason and Tawana for defamation of character, and he won. Tawana did not show up at the trial and was ordered to pay $185,000. Al Sharpton's $65,000 judgment was paid by Johnnie Cochran and Earl Graves.

[14:42] Jessica: The top of my head just blew off, in case you care. Go ahead.

[14:47] Meg: Maddox was ordered to pay $97,000. Mason was ordered to pay $188,000 in 2007, Tawana's mother and stepfather told the Daily News, quote, how could we make this up and take down the state of New York? We're just regular people. Tawana now works as a nurse in Virginia. She is converted to Islam and has had her wages garnished to pay, her settlement to Pagones, which with interest, has ballooned to $429,000. Nobody paid her settlement.

[15:22] Jessica: I was gonna say. So Cochran supported Sharpton and not the girl.

[15:28] Meg: Oh, they all dumped her as soon as the grand jury as soon as she wasn't useful to them, they were way in the distance. To this day, Sharpton remains unapologetic. Quote, "I disagreed with the grand jury on Brawley. I believe there was enough evidence to go to trial. The grand jury said there wasn't. Okay, fine. Do I have a right to disagree with the grand jury? Many Americans believe OJ. Simpson was guilty. A jury said he wasn't. So I have as much right to question a jury as they do. Does it make somebody a racist? No, they just disagreed with the jury. So did I." This is a story, as far as I can tell, about powerful men taking advantage of a young girl.

[16:13] Jessica: There's no question. And one of the things that and I'm not making anything up. This is not telling tales out of school, easily researched, that one of the biggest complaints about Al Sharpton is that he is a charlatan, that he is an opportunist, he's an impresario. He is not someone who is a genuine spiritual leader. He's a rabble rouser.

[16:42] Meg: This happened after Bernie Goetz, which we've covered. It happened after Howard Beach, which we have not covered. But this is before Bensonhurst, which we have covered, which is just sort of an interesting timeline. And all these things happened in the 80s. But, yeah, I mean, she got the lion's share. Tawana got the lion's share of the blame. And all these fancy men, including Mike Tyson and friggin Bill Cosby, completely deserted her after the grand jury findings. And then Johnnie Cochrane pays Al Sharpton's debts. But also I mean, we've talked about it, but like what's up with the media? I just feel like she was let down by so many she was let down by the people who first investigated. She is a child who is in a garbage bag, and she's got feces on her. You don't send that child home. That's insane. She was let down by her family. She was let down by these men who took advantage of her. And in the meantime, there are all these black people who are so angry about past injustice that the truth didn't seem to matter. The truth was beside the point.

[17:55] Jessica: I think what makes it particularly egregious is not just that they famously used her for their purposes. Think about that terminology. That phrase exactly. Used her for their purposes. I mean, I know that Al Sharpton had been a civil rights activist. No one is entirely perfect or entire - Well, you can be entirely evil. But his total disregard and angling to become a spokesman for the New York City black community and then eventually the United States as a whole is so calculated and seems not really to have been done for anyone's benefit but his own.

[18:50] Meg: I do want to do a story just about him, if we can stomach it. I do find his rehabilitation currently troublesome, but also I'd love to focus more on her just because his whole point was so that he could get more attention. And I'm tired of giving him attention.

[19:12] Jessica: You're tired of giving Al..

[19:15] Meg: Al Sharpton attention

[19:16] Jessica: Well, I'm not against giving him attention if the attention is about debunking his elevated status and the perception that he is an arbiter of morality and ethics.

[19:36] Meg: Good point.

[19:37] Jessica: And I think that, now that I think about it, I've had a little time to digest what you're saying. I think that's my biggest problem, having such a very, very tarnished record and to not take the time or make the effort to really make some kind of if not amends some kind of well thought out response to the transgressions of his past and looking at them in a context, like really having some kind of self awareness that is so frequently demanded of anyone in public office. Right. And instead, he feels that it's entirely sufficient to say, I don't feel like it..

[20:23] Meg: Right. I had a right to believe what I wanted to believe, even though you don't have a right to spread lies. He made that up.

[20:31] Jessica: He made the whole thing up. And he was the architect as much as oh, absolutely. Maddox and who's the other attorney?

[20:39] Meg: Mason.

[20:39] Jessica: Mason were representing her. This was fabrication completely on Sharpton's.

[20:49] Meg: I don't think she should have been sued.

[20:51] Jessica: I don't think she should have been sued. I think that she should have been, as you said, cared for properly, and she obviously needed to have some kind of psychiatric evaluation. And I understand he didn't himself create the original issue like she did that as a very troubled, very messed up 15 year old. She was trying to, sure.

[21:10] Meg: But she didn't name names.

[21:12] Jessica: He's the one what I'm saying is he took this germ of an idea and everything else, and the absolute grotesque nature of taking an innocent knowingly taking an innocent person's suicide, I can't think of any word other than grotesque. Could you imagine what that family must have been going through? And for what? For political gain. For political gain in New York City? Look, there's no shortage I want to make this clear. There's no shortage of people in New York City history who have used terrible events as a platform to create some kind of persona for themselves or to be a hero. Al Sharpton didn't invent something new. His relentless drive and absolute lack of concern about who was being used, how they were being used and destroyed and destroyed and what the repercussions would be. He is unique in that way. He is a special case. And as you said, his rehabilitation, the way that he is now, history. I guess this is one of the terrible things about being Gen X, right, is that we've finally reached that stage where indeed our context is pretty broad and we can look at the full narrative arc of what's happened so far and to be able to look at this person who is simultaneously held up as a crusader.

[22:56] Meg: I mean, Joe Scarborough talks to him every morning on Morning Joe, and goes, hey, Rev., as though he is like

[23:02] Jessica: this benign, cuddly, yes, ethical model of ethical righteousness.

[23:12] Meg: For the black community.

[23:13] Jessica: Fuck you. Fuck you.

[23:15] Meg: You can find somebody else. I guarantee you.

[23:17] Jessica: Absolutely, no. I mean look..

[23:20] Meg: They all wash their hands of her.

[23:26] Jessica: I know this is going to sound perverted, but she is in many ways a lucky woman. That she got out of that as she did, without being picked to pieces even further by the media, and that she has a life outside of New York.

[23:45] Meg: She changed her name. I mean, I don't know how much of a life she has. And she basically bears the brunt of this entire fiasco. The rest of them came out of it well. So that is the sad, sad story of a girl being manipulated and abused by powerful men, as far as I'm concerned.

[24:08] Jessica: And within her own family.

[24:10] Meg: And within her own family. Well, thank you for being patient, because I know these stories are not easy to revisit for any of us and but I do think that it was absolutely part of the fabric at that time and something that we should know more about.

[24:30] Jessica: Well, I think there's another big takeaway, which is because right now we are living in a very, very questionable time, I'll put it that way.

[24:41] Meg: Uh

[24:42] Jessica: And the the people who are always the worst, the most morally bankrupt, are the people who are quickest to get on a soapbox and try to either self promote or promote a cause. And I think that the overturning of Roe v. Wade has already opened the door for a lot of that and a lot more is going to happen. So I think that the takeaway from this particular story is don't forget to keep a very critical eye on the people who are making their way into the spotlight over these hot topics. And think twice about believing whatever you're hearing. Think twice about the motivations of the people who have elected to put themselves in front of the cameras. Think twice about because for us, it was cameras. Think twice about what you're reading on social media that if an individual is using such a big issue as a springboard for something very personal for themselves. Pay attention and think. So that's a takeaway from this that I think can be a little bit positive only in that it's instructive in a beneficial way.

[26:14] Meg: Should we take a break?

[26:15] Jessica: Hell yes.

[26:21] Meg: Jessica, do I get an engagement question?

[26:24] Jessica: Yes, it should be very easy for you to answer.

[26:30] Meg: Okay.

[26:32] Jessica: No pressure at all. But we have referred to this several times during the podcast.

[26:38] Meg: Okay.

[26:39] Jessica: But who knows? Maybe I'm dreadfully wrong. But let's see. Hey, Meg?

[26:45] Meg: Yeah?

[26:46] Jessica: Where were we not allowed to go when we were kids and young teenagers? What could we not use that was part that is part of the New York City, uh..

[27:03] Meg: Central Park?

[27:05] Jessica: I'll give you three guesses.

[27:05] Meg: Okay. Subway.

[27:07] Jessica: Yes. Okay. I was worried about you.

[27:13] Meg: I was like, bars? Lots of things were off limits, not that it that stopped us.

[27:16] Jessica: What's interesting is that if you recall discussing this, our relationship with the subway shifted during the 80s, even though the safety of the subway didn't really change. But we got older and we were allowed to, or even if we weren't allowed to, we did start using the subway.

[27:40] Meg: Yeah, I mean, it's really the only way to get from uptown to downtown.

[27:45] Jessica: Well, the Bronx is up and the Battery is down. So I was thinking about what I would talk about today, and I was thinking about how much we've talked about the subway despite the fact that we weren't allowed to use it for a long time because it really is what makes so much of New York happen. True. It is indeed the arteries of the city. So I was thinking about my experiences on the subway and what are the things I remember most and what I remember? There's so many ridiculous things to remember. At some point, we'll talk about panhandling and we'll talk about performers and both on the subway cars and on the platforms. And the city even got involved with that at one point by sponsoring musicians on platforms and in the subway stations. Do you recall those?

[28:48] Meg: No.

[28:48] Jessica: Well, then I will be very good at the city.

[28:51] Meg: Unlike the city.

[28:52] Jessica: It is very unlike the city. But the thing that I remember or think about the most regarding the subway even now is something that actually funnels a lot of money into the subway system. I'm going to read a little quote here from a 1984 New York Times article, and this is a quote from William M. Apfelbaum, and I'll tell you what his job is in a moment. But he says, we are New York's largest newspaper, its largest daytime TV station, it's largest radio station, it's largest magazine, and we're in color 30 days a month now. What do you think?

[29:43] Meg: Do you think they're ads?

[29:44] Jessica: Yeah.

[29:45] Meg: On the subway?

[29:46] Jessica: Yes. William Apfelbaum, executive vice president of the New York Subway's Advertising Company. It has held the city's franchise to sell subway advertising since the first IRT line opened in 1904. IRT, for those who did not grow up in the city, stands for Interborough Rapid Transit and there were two subway lines. One that run ran up the West Side and one that ran up the East Side. And IRT was the East Side Line and I don't remember. Oh, my God. It's going to have to go on the Instagram. Thank you. That's the word for it. But they eventually merged into the MTA. Okay, but yes, he's talking about advertising, and there are three particular things that I recall from the time that I wanted to bring to light. And funny enough, I think that they really exemplify what our teen years were about. Funny enough. So you've already alluded to who is everybody's favorite New York City subway advertiser?

[31:01] Meg: Dr. Zizmor.

[31:03] Jessica: Dr. Zizmor. So, for those of you who are not New Yorkers, Dr. Z was absolutely, in my opinion, a genius of advertising. And he absolutely embraced this opportunity that he had, because who looks worse than people on the subway? No one is as ugly as subway riders. And even if you aren't actually disgusting looking, if you take out a pocket mirror and look at yourself while you're on the subway, you can convince yourself that you are the most hideous person who has ever lived.

[31:41] Meg: But you haven't told our listeners what his specialty was?

[31:44] Jessica: I'm about to get there. Could you please? Dr. Zizmor was a dermatologist.

[31:50] Meg: Thank you.

[31:50] Jessica: And his ads were targeted to the ugly, to the misshapen, to the pockmark of New York. Well, no, I don't say this lightly. His ads were hilarious because instead of trying to put a nice gloss on offering better beauty, we will enhance your beauty at Dr. Zizmor's dermatology. He would list all of these horrible ailments that you might have from acne scars and pustules to boils, ingrown and just everything, you name it, it was on Dr. Zizmor's list. Bullet pointed on his ad, which had to then sort of as an afterthought, he put the rosy gloss on it by having a rainbow arcing over the entire mess of bullet points that he has just put out there. And his face, he had a silhouetted photograph of himself looking kind of like Yertle the Turtle, but in very benign, nice kind of way and hilariously as the years went by, Dr. Zizmor changed not one bit. So he never updated the ads, it was just

[33:12] Meg: You're, right, I guess he must have.

[33:13] Jessica: They ran through the mid 90s, but they started in the early eightys. And actually, what does he look like now? The addition of the rainbow, by the way, was a later that was like at the end of the 80s, beginning of the 90s, but that's how we remember it. But Dr. Z was, as he liked to call himself in his ads, he was advertising since the early eightys and some of the other big advertisers on the subway at the time were Levy's Rye bread. Do you remember their slogan?

[33:45] Meg: I do not.

[33:46] Jessica: You don't have to be Jewish to enjoy Levy's Rye. And they had people of every different possible demographic enjoying a sandwich on Levy's Rye, which was kind of amusing. Do you remember Jennifer Convertibles? Of course. Jennifer Convertibles, as you may or may not know, I did not remember began as Jennifer House Convertibles. It wasn't Jennifer. It was Jennifer House Convertibles. This is sort of

[34:18] Meg: Like that's her last name.

[34:19] Jessica: No. Jennifer and then I guess House was where you put the furniture?

[34:24] Meg: Okay. I'm glad they changed it. It's more straightforward.

[34:27] Jessica: It seems that way. I agree. But there were always ads for Broadway shows and clothing

[34:37] Meg: Which we saw recently on the Russian Doll episode when she walks into the subway and there's cats.

[34:42] Jessica: Yes. They do everything right on that show. They really really do. It's impressive. Radio stations, movie posters, all kinds of stuff.

[34:54] Meg: Yeah. There's a Sophie's Choice, too, on that episode.

[34:58] Jessica: Yes. But what I was really interested by now, just really quickly, is that the cost

[35:07] Meg: Oh yeah, how much did it cost?

[35:08] Jessica: Yeah. I wanted to find out what Dr. Z spent. So this is in 1984, a full and he didn't stop advertising for roughly 15 years. And when you walked into a subway car, his ads were the only ads on the car. They were just straight down repeated, repeated. So from this article in the subways, a full run of 12,000 car cards, meaning two cards in each car on a subway sells for $42,000 a month.

[35:49] Meg: Oh, my God.

[35:50] Jessica: With the cost of reaching 1000 people calculated at roughly $0.25. So while it seems like a huge amount of money think about that. Think about the reach $0.25. How could he afford that? 1000 people? Well, obviously he got a lot of business.

[36:08] Meg: But you couldn't see that many people in a day to support that amount of do we know much about his business? Like, did he have a lot of people working for him or something?

[36:18] Jessica: He was not just a one man band.

[36:20] Meg: Okay. Thank God. I'm worried about his finances.

[36:23] Jessica: Well, don't worry. He was raking it in for quite some time.

[36:28] Meg: Good for him.

[36:29] Jessica: And what I also really enjoyed was there was an article in the New Yorker magazine about Dr. Zizmor. And his ads did change at one point, after the rainbow ads and this was roughly in 2003 that they changed. They started to include Doctor and Mrs. Zizmor. Exactly. So Dr. Zizmor. In fact, I'm going to quote from Rebecca Mead from this June 29, 2003 article in The New Yorker "among the innovations with which patrons of the New York City subway system have recently been faced rising fares the puzzling and unsatisfying introduction of the V line. Perhaps the most startling are the new advertisements for the dermatological services of Dr. Jonathan Zizmor who has been promising relief from unsightly bumps and ashy skin to subterranean travelers since the early 80s. Gone is the scary before and after shot. Instead, the new ad, which had its debut in May (so May of 2003), features a nightscape of indeterminate skyscrapers and includes not just a photograph of the ageless Dr. Z, but a picture showing a handsome woman in a big pale hat and a slogan that reads Dr. And Mrs. Zizmor salute New Yorkers for their strength and courage." And what's so great about this article is that they did this two years after the towers came down, and the interviewer asks, Why? And they basically were like, well, we weren't very organized.

[38:21] Meg: We had an idea.

[38:22] Jessica: Exactly. But it took a while to put it into practice, and partly because who designs all of the ads from time? From the beginning of time? Dr. Z himself.

[38:32] Meg: I love him. Do I love him?

[38:34] Jessica: You love him. Okay, good.

[38:36] Meg: I'm glad there's not some, like not some dark secret, bad stuff about Dr. Zizmor

[38:38] Jessica: I couldn't bear it. I would not have been able to bear it if Dr. Z ended up being gross. Yeah, no, but Dr. Z, to your point about the money, he raked it in. Here's some other information I found from this New Yorker article. Because here's what I found surprising, his ads were so low rent, his ads could not have looked I mean, dumber.

[39:04] Meg: Could not possibly go to that person I mean, for your skin care.

[39:09] Jessica: Well, I tried every time I saw his ads, and I mean, every time I tried to imagine what his waiting room looked like, and I was like, I don't even know what bottom of the barrel, city hospitals are dumping skin disease nightmares on his doorstep.

[39:29] Meg: I hope it's not communicable.

[39:31] Jessica: Well, if it had been communicable, Dr. Z used very good protection because he remained ageless and good looking, as we know. Indeed. But he met Mrs. Zizmor, the future Mrs. Zizmor, having lunch with lunch with friends at the Four Seasons.

[39:51] Meg: Nice.

[39:52] Jessica: They got married at the Plaza.

[39:54] Meg: Nice.

[39:55] Jessica: And in fact, this whole interview took place over tea at the Four Seasons Hotel. So Dr. Z did just fine. And Mrs. Z. Mrs. Dr. Z, it turns out. Oh, no. Excuse me. Their first date was at Le Cirque. Yeah. Don't worry about Dr. Z. And she says of him again, speaking of his largess, she mistakenly ordered two entrees instead of an appetizer and an entree. And she says, but he didn't say a word. He had a lot of class, and he let it go. First date at Le Cirque. And she ordered milk, to which she says, with dessert, you have to have milk with cake. So they are now officially the cutest, most ridiculous couple. She has this enormous, she was the Imelda Marcos of hats. And insisted that Dr. Z, who was described in the article as being a bit pasty with russet colored hair, she insisted, and I quote, that he wear a chapeau. He declined. They're talking about not long after their honeymoon. Lake Como, Zurich, and Lugano. Again, not bad. Dr. Z. Mrs. Zizmor persuaded the reluctant Dr. Z to leave Manhattan where he always lived in favor of Riverdale. Quote, we had a huge fight, but I really love it now. Yeah. Would you move to Riverdale? I mean, I wouldn't well, this is my point. Why would Dr. Z but for the love of Mrs. Z There he went. But this is where you know how all of our episodes have some weird link to something else? Yes. Okay, so she says, we bought the house to entertain and throw functions. I just threw a Guardian Angels fundraiser in our home for Curtis Sliwa. We want to have great thinkers and host parties that have authors.

[42:00] Meg: Okay, did she have a chat with Curtis before she decided to host this party for him?

[42:03] Jessica: Does it matter? Because Dr. Zizmor chimes in. "Our rabbi uses the house for meetings." Random.

[42:14] Meg: They are part of the community.

[42:16] Jessica: And then he says, this is going to sound weird. Now, it's going to sound weird, Dr.Z, but we want to use it for world peace. We are going to invite people who hate each other and they will spend a weekend together. So these are really..

[42:35] Meg: That's wild. Do they also have masks and saunas and things that can make your skin

[42:41] Jessica: Oh, no,

[42:43] Meg: Not skin related, these weekends?

[42:44] Jessica: No, this is entirely about just an incredibly adorable, clearly misguided approach to finding world peace one kvetcher at a time.

[42:58] Meg: Well, they must have a really nice place in Riverdale. You know what I bet it was?

[43:02] Jessica: Well, you know what it is? It's called better living and world peace through the suburbs.

[43:07] Meg: And I bet he missed all the hubbub of New York City. And she was like, you can bring them here to Riverdale.

[43:14] Jessica: Maybe we have to find them and interview them.

[43:16] Meg: Oh, my God, that would be amazing.

[43:17] Jessica: I mean, of all things, Curtis Sliwa. I mean, think about that just for a second. Let's have a, let's have a moment.

[43:23] Meg: A party for Curtis.

[43:24] Jessica: Curtis Sliwa and Dr. Zizmor in the same room. Oh, my God. I want this to be something that.

[43:32] Meg: There must be pictures.

[43:34] Jessica: If only I were a better cartoonist, that would be one that I do. But I can't carry it off. So he says, people, in a way, love me. Dr. Zizmor said, it's really amazing. Mrs. Zizmor says, I think they have a warm feeling. People like things that stick around. They see my face all the time he said. Your punim says Mrs. Zizmor fondly. My punim says Dr. Zizmor with satisfaction. That means face in Yiddish. Wait, there was another really beautiful thing here. There's a whole thing about her going to talk to the butcher and how he knows her from the ads while he's slicing deli meat for her.

[44:18] Meg: So her photo is on the ads now, too.

[44:20] Jessica: Yes.

[44:21] Meg: Are the ads still running?

[44:22] Jessica: No, they are not, but the last ads that they did but Dr. Zizmor, to make things even more delightful in his retirement, he he left skin behind, and he became a Talmudic scholar with his rabbi in his home in Riverdale. Right?

[44:41] Meg: He has such a good life.

[44:43] Jessica: He has a very good life. So that's one side of being a teenager, right? Zits. Right. And not that that's 80s specific, but for us, that was 80s specific. Sure. But another part of 80s specific life, and for us, growing up, was something that we've also talked about. It was a scourge first of New York and California and San Francisco and then across the nation.

[45:14] Meg: AIDS

[45:15] Jessica: Yes. And another way that the New York City advertising in the subway was utilized was by the MTA and the CDC for AIDS education. And do you remember that there was a print version of a telenovela in the subways about Julio and Marisol?

[45:41] Meg: I do. Oh my god. That was in the 80's?

[45:42] Jessica: Yep, it was English, there was an English version and a Spanish version that ran at the same time in the subway cars, and it was called The Decision. And it was nine episodes in which Julio and Marisol is trying to get Marisol to have sex with him unprotected. And then with each episode, they talk to people in their friend groups. They find out that there are certain people they never expected who already have AIDS, and that there are certain people who are having sex with other people who they didn't think were and but what was really interesting about it was not only that it was an AIDS PSA right in the subway and and at a crucial time like, this was not, you know, in the 90s. This was, like, in the early to mid 80s.

[46:39] Meg: And that it was about heterosexual sex.

[46:40] Jessica: And that exactly - it was about heterosexual sex. And that was so underplayed.

[46:47] Meg: Yeah, for sure.

[46:47] Jessica: That was kind of amazing. And also they decided to do that because the Spanish speaking demographic in New York City were the least likely to use condoms at that time. They had done research on it, and they said, okay, this is who we're going to target. And it made a really huge difference.

[47:15] Meg: It did?

[46:16] Jessica: It did. The one thing that I found really bananas, though, is that this can't be right. But in the material that I read, it said that they put out a new episode once a year for eight years. And then they never put out the 9th episode because the woman who was in charge of it, there was a new person under Giuliani who was in charge of this, and she didn't like the idea of this serious subject being next to all the tacky subway ads, which, of course, is garbage. That's utter bullshit. There was some other reason.

[47:54] Meg: Why do you think that's not true?

[47:58] Jessica: What, you're going to do eight and then have an aesthetic issue on the 9th one?

[48:04] Meg: But if it's a new person, I don't know.

[48:05] Jessica: Because it's tacky?

[48:07] Meg: A new administration

[48:08] Jessica: Yes, it's because it's a new administration, but I don't think that it's because she didn't want to muddy the water.

[48:15] Meg: Oh that's what...I thought you thought that the whole story wasn't true.

[48:18] Jessica: No, no no no...

[48:18] Meg: You're just saying that her excuse was, her excuse was of

[48:21] Jessica: Her excuse was bullshit

[48:22] Meg: Of course

[48:25] Jessica: Giuliani is getting zero. Quite rightly. And we were talking about this earlier regarding Sharpton. I want to make this very clear that my feelings about opportunists in New York do not begin and end with Sharpton. Giuliani, what a piece of excrement. America's mayor- go fuck yourself and everything that he did. His whole 911 display, as we've talked about. Again, I know that I'm treading over old ground.

[48:55] Meg: No, we haven't really talked in depth about him because I find him disgusting.

[48:59] Jessica: Well, wait, hold on a minute. Little Miss Cannibalism is saying that Giuliani is too disgusting to talk about. That is the best indictment my value I know it's the best indictment. I'd rather talk about someone eating other people than Giuliani's tenure, pretty much.

[49:23] Meg: No, I but I also he was in the 90s, so I don't have to address him. Except that he was attorney general, so at some point I do. Here and there, he leaks into my stories. I hate it.

[49:32] Jessica: He oozes into your stories? Yeah. He is another piece of shit. But we can talk about him in lurid detail at another time. But anyway, so those two and there was another thing that I thought I would bring to your attention because what did we study at Nightingale? What was our language?

[49:51] Meg: Latin.

[49:52] Jessica: No, dumb dumb.

[49:53] Meg: Why do you always say I'm wrong? We did. In fact, study Latin. I did.

[49:58] Jessica: Okay. What, were we in class together?

[50:01] Meg: French.

[50:05] Jessica: So, I never knew any Spanish, and the only Spanish I ever picked up was in the subway, from the subway signs. And to this day, one of the only things I can say in Spanish is and this is, I'm sure, pronounced really incorrectly no te apoyes en las puertas. Which is - don't lean on the doors.

[50:33] Meg: Thank you, MTA.

[50:35] Jessica: Indeed. So the phenomenon of subway advertising. And the icons, Dr. Z and Marisol and Julio, chef's kiss for greatest advertising.

[50:58] Jessica: Okay, so, Meg, this was a very enlightening episode on many different levels, but.

[51:02] Meg: Good to be back.

[51:03] Jessica: So glad to have you back. I hate it when you go away. It's the worst. Don't do that again. Only for a couple of days. I hate it. So, I'm wondering if we're able to keep our trend of finding the unlikely crossover between each of our portions going. Is there anything that you have identified as linking the Al Sharpton/Tawana Brawley debacle with Dr. Z and Mrs. Z?

[51:39] Meg: Yeah, I guess the one thing that occurs to me is that on the one hand, you have these powerful men who really don't seem to care about anybody except for themselves. And in contrast to that, you've got this very lovely man and his very lovely wife who want to find world peace in their house in Riverdale.

[52:05] Jessica: I get it. They're both misguided and coming from wildly different ends of the ethical spectrum, but equally a little fakakta in the cabeza

[52:21] Meg: And, you know, New York needs some balance. Thank God we've got some Zizmor's when we have to put up with the Sharptons.

[52:28] Jessica: Absolutely. That is 100% true. And speaking of putting up with things yes. So we are now, I am making the commitment, as you well know, to trying to get our Twitter going. And so I've been finding material, and I'm so bad at posting that I ask all of our listeners to put up with me for a little bit as I get it going. But we are now on Twitter and

[53:00] Meg: You can find us at..

[53:02] Jessica: I don't know, where can you find us?

[53:03] Meg: Desperately_80s

[53:07] Jessica: Fabulous.

[53:08] Meg: That's our Twitter handle. Handle.

[53:10] Jessica: Handle. Isn't that what the kids are saying these days with the nomenclature? Yes, that's 80s, no apostrophe just desperately_80s. Thank you.