[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80's. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City where we still live. [00:29] Meg: And where we are podcasting about New York City in the 80's. I handle Ripped From the Headlines.

[00:34] Jessica: And I do Pop Culture.

[00:36] Meg: And Jessica, I have some updates. We've had a lot of audience feedback this week. [00:43] Jessica: Yay! Engagement!

[00:43] Meg: Engagement. And it's been really lovely. And my absolute favorite engagement came from the one and only Cibella Borges–

[01:01] Jessica: No!

[01:02] Meg: –who, first of all, appreciates... she said that she and her husband giggled about– [01:04] Jessica: –that he's a smoke show!

[01:10] Meg: Yeah.

[01:12] Jessica: And she's, as I said, cute as a little button!

[01:12] Meg: Yes, and quite a powerhouse. But also, you know, I was worried... not worried but I appreciated that she said that we told the story well.

[01:23] Jessica: That is a ringing endorsement. Isn't that like, what we live for here? [01:29] Meg: Pretty much.

[01:29] Jessica: Good storytelling!

[01:33] Meg: And I also heard from Peter. [01:39] Jessica: Yes.

[01:40] Meg: Who said, OMG. Just finished listening to the Thug Life episode. I know it's late. I should be sleeping. He sent this at 2:30 in the morning. It was awesome. I know Alex Flaming Pablum.

[01:55] Jessica: No!

[01:55] Meg: Yeah. Not from back in the day, but from his great blog. I reached out to him when he started it and we became friends. Side note, I also remember Robert C. from Browning. Ugh, what a creep. I never had any run ins with the 84th Street dudes, but definitely had friends that did. Ninos! My buddy lives in Rupert Towers on 90th and we would always go to blow money on Defender and Joust. Thank you for your incredible podcast. Love you guys. Heart. [02:26] Jessica: Oh, a Browning boy.

[02:30] Meg: Isn't that sweet?

[02:32] Jessica: Thank you, Peter.

[02:31] Meg: And this, from Cathy. My Cathy. Your Cathy. Our dear Cathy from Nightingale. Just listened. I remember playing the video games and smoking at Nino's. Also, I can't believe you guys remembered the name of the Chinese restaurant. It was The Cottage! But there was another one that had an upstairs where we pregamed before going to Dorians. Can't remember the name of that place. You guys going to talk about McGowans and their IPO bowls? Or West End and their famous Long Island Iced Teas?

[03:01] Jessica: Oh, my God. We just need to get Cathy on the podcast.

[03:05] Meg: Right?

[03:06] Jessica: Cathy, if you're listening to this episode, which we assume you are, please let us know what your schedule allows.

[03:14] Meg: Well, I wrote back and I was like, I don't remember IPO bowls. What were those? And she said, that big ass bowl of who knows what liquor and juice had a few straws and then a shot of grain alcohol in the middle that was lit on fire. I responded, Jesus.

[03:32] Jessica: Those were considered to be tiki bowls.

[03:36] Meg: And Cathy wrote, I can still remember the taste of the vomit. It was like a low class copy of Trader Vic's drink. [03:44] Jessica: Yes, exactly. Yes. P.S. Kathy. I assume you're listening. I have the Trader Vic's cookbook and drink recipe book. Come over. I think that the three of us need to have some flaming bowls. [04:00] Meg: Oh, my God. Can you imagine? [04:01] Jessica: Yes, I can.

[04:04] Meg: So, yeah. Nice engagement.

[04:05] Jessica: I love it. That's amazing.

[04:09] Meg: Oh, I have one other thing to talk about before we get started.

[04:13] Jessica: I'm very excited. You're building up my enthusiasm today. I was so down in the D.U.M.P.S., and now I'm not!

[04:24] Meg: I've talked to you about Malt and Mold, which is pretty much the best thing that happened to my neighborhood over the pandemic. It's this wonderful little beer garden. It's a storefront. Have I brought you there before? [04:40] Jessica: No. You did. We filled up the growler.

[04:44] Meg: Yes, exactly. You can fill up growlers. Anyway, it's like hanging out. I live in the Gramercy Park area, and a bunch of people just sort of use Malt and Mold as, like, an extension of their living room. It has got such a wonderful vibe, wonderful people. Kevin, who is the owner and runs it, is just lovely, lovely presence to our community. And I am giving a shout out to Malt and Mold, as in beer and cheese. They also do great cheese plates. Because we are supporting local New York business.

[05:20] Jessica: Yay, Malt and Mold.

[05:23] Meg: All right, you ready for your engagement question?

[05:25] Jessica: Okay, wait. I'm centering myself. [05:28] Meg: Okay, center yourself. We'll take, like, a super brief break.

[05:31] Jessica: Okay. No, I'm ready.

[05:33] Meg: No, we will take a super brief break. [05:42] Jessica: Okay. Haha!

[05:42] Meg: So, Jessica, your engagement question today is a little deep. Are you ready? [05:51] Jessica: The way you're looking at me makes me feel like I will never be ready.

[05:54] Meg: The fact is, I think we should maybe fill people in. Both of us had rather emotional weekends or weeks, and so we're in a very different kind of place.

[06:07] Jessica: We're delicate!

[06:09] Meg: I just realized that my engagement question to you might like–

[06:09] Jessica: Is it the trigger warning?

[06:12] Meg: –open up, like, a whole swarm of feelings, which it doesn't necessarily have to do, so I give you permission...

[06:18] Jessica: You know, this is the first trigger warning to me personally.

[06:22] Meg: I give you permission to not have this open up a bunch of stuff. It could just be a light question.

[06:27] Jessica: This is sort of like truth or dare now.

[06:29] Meg: Okay, it's not that big. What did you want to be when you grew up?

[06:39] Jessica: I wanted to be a princess, and I am! No, I wanted to be an actress.

[06:46] Meg: Oh, yeah? You were a wonderful actress in our school productions.

[06:49] Jessica: No, I got panned a few times.

[06:53] Meg: Oh, who was reviewing?

[06:55] Jessica: I did, funny enough, a play at Browning. I did The Bourgeois Gentilhomme, and I got a bad review, and it scarred me for life. [07:03] Meg: I'm sorry, who was reviewing? [07:05] Jessica: Do I remember?

[07:06] Meg: Like, some kid?

[07:07] Jessica: It was, like, in the school paper, like something really obnoxious.

[07:16] Meg: So, some like jerk? But a Browning jerk.

[07:18] Jessica: A Browning 10th grade ahole was thinking that he was Rex Reed and got his bitchy hat on and said that I was sub-par.

[07:30] Meg: That is awful. Are you tearing up? [07:31] Jessica: No, I'm not. What you're seeing here is the eye of rage. This is the eye of rage. I'm thinking back now. My face is all screwed up with rancor.

[07:43] Meg: We need to track him down.

[07:45] Jessica: Retribution will be had.

[07:47] Meg: I love it.

[07:48] Jessica: But although I will tell you one thing that really also damaged me. This was on the part of Nightingale. Do you know that I didn't get the part of Giles Corey?

[07:59] Meg: Yes, I know this.

[08:00] Jessica: And you know why?

[08:02] Meg: Remind me.

[08:03] Jessica: Well, because you know, Giles Corey has his great speech in The Crucible where they're pressing him to death with stones and he can't take it anymore. And he's ready. He's like, I'm not going to fight anymore. And he says, more weight. Like, kill me. Well, every time I said it, they started laughing and they were like, it's so funny. I was like, no. I was genuinely emoting. And I was like, this is the beginning of never being understood.

[08:30] Meg: Kelly– Who got that part?

[08:34] Jessica: Some bitch.

[08:35] Meg: Okay, we don't have to go down The Crucible road.

[08:39] Meg: You're a comedian. I am just telling you–

[08:45] Meg: You just couldn't turn off your natural coding.

[08:50] Jessica: It was the beginning of my realizing that I had limitations.

[08:48] Meg: I would not call those– making people laugh is not a limitation. That's a wonderful, wonderful gift.

[08:55] Jessica: I love you, Meggie. Thank you. That was the best affirmation.

[09:05] Meg: Okay. So did the protagonist of my story today, he wanted to become an actor. Isn't that interesting?

[09:15] Jessica: Yes. I'm already thanking God that I didn't come to the same dismal end that I assume this person did.

[09:24] Meg: Pretty much, yeah.

[09:24] Jessica: All right, I'm ready for the gore. [09:27] Meg: My sources are a blog by Al Aronowitz. You are like, thank God you're here to correct my pronunciation. It's so bad. I basically mispronounce absolutely everyone's name. But this guy Al, I'll call him Al, has a blog called Blacklisted Journalist.

[09:54] Jessica: Ooh, interesting!

[09:55] Meg: It is very interesting. And he did extensive interviews with the person that I'm talking about today. So a lot of my story is actually direct quotes from him.

[10:01] Jessica: Okay.

[10:02] Meg: An Esquire magazine article from 1991 and various obituaries in The Times. [10:08] Jessica: Wow. Okay. Various obituaries. You have my attention.

[10:12] Meg: So you remember my story about Daniel Rakowitz, the Butcher of Tomkins Square Park?

[10:18] Jessica: As if I will ever forget the Mad Stew Chef.

[10:22] Meg: Exactly. Well, my main source for that story was an article in the Village Voice written in 1989 by Max Cantor, and it turns out Max Cantor. Is that better? Cantor?

[10:38] Jessica: Yes, it was better.

[10:39] Meg: He has a pretty interesting story of his own.

[10:43] Jessica: Interesting.

[10:44] Meg: And inspired by your story last week when you went on a deep dive about the red headed twins of the 84th street gang. I went on a deep dive about Max.

[10:52] Jessica: Okay. I'm very excited to hear about this.

[10:55] Meg: All right, so he was in his late 20s when he became fascinated with all things Lower East Side. So that's what eventually brought him to Daniel. He'd actually met Daniel Rakowitz months before the murder while he was interviewing all kinds of colorful characters in the Tompkins Square Park area. And then three months after interviewing Daniel, Max almost spit up his cornflakes when he saw the headline in the Daily News that Rakowitz had been arrested for the murder of Monika Bearle. So he came for the murder, and he stayed for the dismemberment and cannibalism and, in fact, he became obsessed. After The Village Voice article was published, Daniel called Max from the Brooklyn House of Detention. So this is before the trial, claiming he was innocent and that he wasn't a lunatic.

[11:51] Jessica: As he was picking his teeth, there's a little Monica!

[11:55] Meg: And he was upset with Max because Max had suggested that he was, in fact, guilty and absolutely a lunatic. In an interview about this conversation, Max said, quote, he (Daniel) was very nice about this, enough to make me say, well, and start nosing around. And what I discovered was shocking. I mean, I don't believe Daniel. I believe that Daniel, jesus, this is real tricky territory for me, but I don't believe what Daniel told me over the phone. Daniel insists that he's innocent of the crime, and I don't believe him. But the crime and the circumstances surrounding the crime are far more complicated. I think that there are still more accomplices. I think I'm a pretty good journalist, and I think I found a story that, I mean, I don't know really how much I can say on the record, just that it's a very complicated and a very sticky situation.

[12:50] Jessica: All right. Does this mean that he is also, as he's saying this, is he fashioning a tinfoil hat for himself?

[12:57] Meg: Did you get a sense of, like, maybe a little bit of...

[13:00] Jessica: Well, I thought that your dramatic reading was very telling.

[13:03] Meg: All right, what did you get from it? [13:06] Jessica: It seemed a bit manic?

[13:08] Meg: A little.

[13:09] Jessica: And breathlessly nutty? Well, conspiracy theories tend to come from the tinfoil hat crowd.

[13:16] Meg: Okay, I think you are picking up what I am laying down.

[13:20] Jessica: All right.

[13:21] Meg: So Max decided to develop his article about Daniel into a book. And the working title of the book was From Soup to Nuts.

[13:30] Jessica: Shut up right now. No, it wasn't.

[13:35} Meg: It was.

[13:36} Jessica: It was? Oh, my God. I don't care how crazy this boy was. Best title ever.

[13:45] Meg: Pretty much.

[13:45] Jessica: Oh, my. You know what? Day made. Continue, please.

[13:53] Meg: To get to the bottom of the story, because now he felt like, oh, my... And by the way, this article in The Village Voice was, like, the longest article I've ever read on anything ever. I can't believe that they printed the whole thing. It was so long. It was like a little novella in and of itself. And the fact that he then talks to Daniel and is like, no, there's so much more. I'm going to write a whole volume.

[14:15] Jessica: He got bitten by the Capote bug. [14:18] Meg: So to get to the bottom of the story, Max embedded himself in the shady, chaotic drug-fueled world of the Lower East Side. And a year and a half later, he was found dead in his apartment from an accidental overdose of heroin, cocaine, and Prozac. He was born Michael in 1959 so he's, a decade older than we are, and he grew up in the Dakota.

[14:45] Jessica: Privileged background.

[14:46] Meg: Yes. He was the son of Arthur Cantor, the theater producer.

[14:50] Jessica: Oh, really?

[14:51] Meg: Really. His successes included the original production of The Music Man. He went to Collegiate.

[14:57] Jessica: No.

[14:59] Meg: Yep. A very short walk from his home.

[15:05] Jessica: Yes.

[15:06] Meg: His mother died of cancer when he was eleven. And a couple of years later, when he was in the 8th grade, he changed his name to Max, naming himself after his favorite teacher.

[15:20] Jessica: Aww.

[15:21] Meg: He and his father had a tumultuous relationship and he ended up moving from Collegiate to Buxton Prep. Have you heard of that before?

[15:24] Jessica: Is that like when you're troubled? [15:27] Meg: I don't know. But it is a progressive boarding school in Massachusetts.

[15:32] Jessica: Progressive immediately translates to problematic pitch.

[15:37] Meg: Yeah. This whole story has got little clues in it and not necessarily any conclusions. So I just tell you the facts and you make the conjecture, right?

[15:48] Jessica: Well, yes. You provide the facts and I will provide the judgement. There you go. Okay, go ahead.

[15:55] Meg: A childhood friend said of him, quote, he was a brilliant guy, but he was an extremely insecure individual. You got the impression he was always looking for acceptance. He went to Harvard, where he was known for his intensity. Whatever he took on, he became completely immersed in it. He played piano and guitar. He wrote songs. He drew cartoons inspired by R. Crumb. He could make one quarter last 6 hours on his favorite video game.

[16:26] Jessica: Okay, so he's a total nutter. Alright, go ahead.

[16:30] Meg: I mean, at this point he just sounds like he's got energy.

[16:34] Jessica: At this point he sounds like he's on the road to being a schizophrenic.

[16:36] Meg: Possibly.

[16:37] Jessica: But continue, please.

[16:38] Meg: He was also an actor at school, so that was his dream and he wanted to become an actor professionally.

[16:46] Jessica: Oh, so this is the connection? Thanks for that.

[16:48] Meg: You're the one who said it.

[16:50] Jessica: All right, go ahead.

[16:52] Meg: After graduating college, he was cast as Robbie, the creepy med student who gets Penny pregnant in Dirty Dancing.

[17:00] Jessica: He played Robbie? He was Robbie the creep?

[17:03] Meg: Yeah.

[17:04] Jessica: Okay, I need to take a break. [17:06] Meg: There are lots of things like that in this story.

[17:11] Jessica: I have such a strong visual. I remember exactly what Robbie looked like. Ugh, max, seriously! Go ahead.

[17:19] Meg: And then he was cast in the pilot of a sitcom based on the movie Diner. But Barry Levinson was not a fan of his performance or his onset behavior. This is a quote from Max. Quote... (laughs) Did you just toot?

[17:39] Jessica: You did!

[17:44] Meg: You did

[17:45] Jessica: Darling, I definitely did not.

[17:47] Meg: Neither did I.

[17:48] Jessica: Well then the chair squeezed. If you don't keep this in. I'm walking off this podcast forever. No, honestly, this is what people want to hear. That is great programming, and if you edit it out, I'm going to be furious.

[18:22] Meg: Okay, we'll see.

[18:23] Jessica: No, there's no we'll see. Every now and then, give me, like throw me a bone. [18:26] Meg: Every now and then. Jesus. So this is a quote from Max. Remember, we're talking about his dealings with (fart noise) Barry Levinson.

[18:35] Jessica: Yes.

[18:36] Meg: All right. Quote, I think I'm a very talented guy, but I'm also self destructive. I get in my own way. I alienate people. I'm extremely loud and noisy, and I push too hard. His father did not approve of Max being an actor, and Max couldn't handle all the rejection. And after numerous complaints about his erratic behavior on set, his agent encouraged him to quit acting. His father said of him, quote, it was very difficult to tell him anything. Part of his brilliance was his willfulness. He couldn't discuss anything on a calm level. So are you getting a good picture of him?

[19:16] Jessica: Very.

[19:17] Meg: So Max decided to become a writer. [19:20] Jessica: Well, that's much more suitable for an intense loon.

[19:25] Meg: This is all in Max's voice. Quote, I was living with my girlfriend on the Upper West Side, and we were getting kicked out. We didn't have any money and we didn't know what to do. It was July 4, 85. We went down to the Lower East Side. A couple in their 20s walking along and asking strangers if they knew of any apartments up for grabs. All the supers were hanging out on their stoops. And somehow we wound up on Rivington Street at the Nada Gallery, this crazy place where all these people were doing this performance art thing with everybody banging as hard as they could on tin drums with pipes and scrap metal. It was deafening. You could hear it from blocks around, this tremendous fucking sound. And I said, what the hell is that? And we took a look in there and there were all these freaks with tattoos and turquoise hair smashing and bashing on these metal things. I couldn't believe that nobody in the mainstream was writing about this cultural pocket. I thought it was more interesting than investment banking, which is what a lot of other journalists do. I saw that everybody was relating. It was like a big interrelated tribal thing. Everybody knew everybody else. Clearly, there were figures who were accorded higher respect. Everybody played a role. And you could see that there were feuds and there were power struggles going on between this person and this other person about who was going to lead this amorphous movement, either in this direction or that direction. Nobody was quite sure about what this movement was all about, but it was certainly all about the fact that the political climate that we live in today sucks, that things aren't right the way they are, that the world is not a fair place and that this country is run by despicable charlatans. That's what this movement seemed to be all about. I wanted to penetrate this movement and understand who was who. I don't know why I picked it, but I just thought I could really map this world and assuage my curiosity.

[21:19] Jessica: Well written.

[21:20] Meg: Isn't that interesting?

[21:21] Jessica: Yes.

[21:21] Meg: And he also, I mean, I didn't go into it, but his first article was about Adam Purple. [21:28] Jessica: No.

[21:28] Meg: Yeah. And he sold it to the Village Voice, but then the Village Voice never published it.

[21:34] Jessica: Now I feel like I need to do a deep dive on this kid. He's fascinating.

[21:38] Meg: He is. Max told his friend Al Aronowitz that he had smoked cocaine freebase. Quote, so I could get to no freebasers and so I could be hip enough to interview them. Al warned him, quote, the first hit is too much and every hit afterwards is not enough. Eventually you take a hit and it makes you feel so bad you think you're going to die. Freebase doesn't make you hit, it just makes you crazy. It's the ultimate commodity. Cocaine simply makes you want more of it. According to Max's friend Marcia, he became hooked the first time he freebased. Quote, within 24 hours, he was out copping dope on the street. And this is from the Esquire article that was one of my sources that I'm just going to quote directly from. And it was written by Sarah Ferguson. On the Lower East Side, nonconformists tow a thin line between freedom and dissipation. For all the runaways who come here seeking to translate rage and rebellion into an alternative lifestyle, there are a few who merely exchange the repression of the birds for the revolutionary escapism of drugs and squalor. And only a few months after first freebasing, Max was dead and he never got to write his book.

[23:02] Jessica: I'm speechless. I wonder why. Let's break this down. Why is this so affecting? Hm. Because we've talked about cocaine a lot. We've talked about the East Village. What is it about this kid's story? I mean, think about that poor kid Marty. His story was horrendous. But this story actually left me speechless for a few moments. So what is it about this story. Why did you find this so compelling?

[23:42] Meg: The Village Voice article was a little manic, I have to say. And so when I found out that he had a story, I was interested in what that could possibly be. Who is this person who turned out this crazy article that I read? And then to find out that he went to Collegiate, where our brothers went. While he was a decade older than we are, there's so much in history that just sounds really familiar to me. When I found out that his mother died and that his friends are saying that he was seeking affirmation, and then you do a little deep dive on Arthur Cantor. The year that Max's mother died, that's when he was working a lot. That's when he was having really big successes in his career. Also, he could have done anything. He's got the world is his oyster. He goes to these great schools, and he's got support and he's got talent, obviously, and he's got energy. And he wants to be a creative person, and the door is a little bit open for him in that capacity. And somehow all of those things that benefited him also were his downfall.

[25:03] Jessica: Although, now that you're saying all those things, you've made me think about some of my own exploits, and I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation because being drawn to the downtown scene and all that it has to offer can be sort of a cover for, now I want to be self destructive

[25:29] Meg: Right.

[25:30] Jessica: Or not now I want to be, but I found a way to be self destructive. And I can mask it with this artistic pursuit. And it's not to say that his writing wasn't sincere or his desire to do it, but it's inextricably linked to a need to tear himself apart. You know, I've gone through my own weirdnesses downtown, and I know that his life was in some ways similar to our backgrounds. Seeing the downtown, the opportunities that are available downtown for dissipation and sort of louche lifestyle and all of that, it's beyond tempting. It's the ultimate acting out. So that, I think, got me. And the other thing is, do you remember there was the whole... Obviously, we all know there's the whole 'just say no' from Nancy Reagan and all of that stuff, but the things that really got me about 'don't do drugs' because there are some things that will genuinely fuck you up forever were the stories of people who tried something once and died. [26:42] Meg: Right.

[26:43] Jessica: And I remember for the longest time, I never did cocaine. Why? Len Bias. Remember Len Bias, the up and coming basketball player who allegedly snorted coke once and dropped dead?

[26:58] Meg: Yeah, that does sound familiar. [27:00] Jessica: And so there were a couple of incidents like that. And I also knew a girl in college, another city kid, similar profile to ours, whose sister died of a heroin overdose and got hooked very quickly also. So this idea of, like, four months, like, there's no room to fuck up or fuck around. And those who get out of it, it's luck of the draw.

[27:32] Meg: A miracle. Yeah.

[27:33] Jessica: And I think because I know what he looks like, that also is a little effective. I mean, he looks like every boy we've ever known. [27:39] Meg: Every prep school boy ever.

[27:44] Jessica: Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. And I think the other thing about it. That's very New York. It's also very LA. But it's very New York, is the kids of these unbelievably talented and celebrated people, and not only feeling like I want to follow in my parents' footsteps or I want to at least measure up, but it's also how do you both stay, I don't know, like, relevant in your original mileage with your parents and their friends and people you go to school with. But also differentiate yourself, and when the place that you're coming from is so extreme. And living in the Dakota, where is there to go from there? And so the only other extreme is as low as you can go.

[28:37] Meg: Yeah, I mean, of course, being the child of a celebrity always looked really attractive growing up. I've known many children of celebrities over the years. But...

[28:48] Jessica: Well, it's always attractive when you're growing up, and then when you hit 21 or younger and you flame out, then suddenly it's very evident that it's not that attractive.

[28:57] Meg: Not maybe as easy as it looks. [28:59] Jessica: It's worth delving into, because we've talked about the Upper East Side. We've talked about the Lower East Side, we've talked about the Bronx is up and the Battery's down, whatever. But there is more to the tension between these parts of the city that are economically really, really at other ends of the spectrum, at opposite ends of the spectrum, but also culturally, in some ways really similar. Like he was running away from the Dakota, along with all these kids who are running away from wherever they were running away from. But anyway, there's a tension between the haves and the have-nots, always, but I think that in the 80s, this particular thing of the downtown scene and uptown privilege was really potent and really toxic and worth more exploration, because I'm sure now that you've opened the door, that Max's story is told a million times over. Kids with promising futures who became junkies and whatever. I, of course, was immediately thinking of the movie Rush during this. Do you remember that movie with Jennifer Jason Leigh?

[30:14] Meg: I don't think I saw it.

[30:15] Jessica: What's his name? Jason Patrick. They were cops, and they went undercover as junkies, and then they became junkies.

[30:22] Meg: Oh god. That's what happens.

[30:23] Jessica: Don't do drugs!

[30:23] Meg: Don't do drugs!

[30:24] Jessica: So Meg, I'm going to talk about something that you and I deal with every single day.

[30:28] Meg: Okay.

[30:30] Jessica: And I'm changing my format a little bit for today. We're going to have a conversation, all right? Because it affects you every single day.

[30:44] Meg: I'm so nervous.

[30:46] Jessica: Don't be. So here's my engagement question for you. What's one of the nice things that you feel was a byproduct of Covid?

[30:56] Meg: Well, honestly, the first thing that comes to mind is Malt and Mold because it brought all these people in our neighborhood together because there's an outdoor place to sit, and there wasn't really a community like that before in our neighborhood. So that was really lovely.

[31:14] Jessica: That's lovely.

[31:16] Meg: Ooh, I have something else.

[31:16] Jessica: Oh, what else?

[31:17] Meg: I started taking really long walks along the East River with Fozzie, and that became just part of my routine, and I hadn't really done that before.

[31:28] Jessica: Well, you're getting warmer. Well, what really got me, the one thing that actually moved me was that all of the animal shelters were empty.

[31:43] Meg: Oh, yes.

[31:44] Jessica: Everyone got a critter, a cat or a dog, and people who never thought that they were animal people realized the incredible companionship and warmth and vitality that having a wee beastie in your life brings to you. So that was my favorite outcome.

[32:03] Meg: And also that, animals, especially dogs, are a lot more welcome now as a result of Covid, I think.

[32:09] Jessica: Yes. And so begins my topic, which was, we talk about how New York City was such a different place in so many ways. Bizarrely, it was – though major cosmopolitan metropolitan city that is always mentioned in the same breath as London and Paris – the relationship to dogs was never the same. And in 1978, things got even worse for dogs or for dog owners. And it was in 80s that this dog related issue really bloomed. It really made itself be known and created two warring camps of New Yorkers as well as fertile ground, haha, for entrepreneurs of all types. So what we're going to talk about is, in 1978, what law was passed? [33:14] Meg: The pooper scooper law.

[33:16] Jessica: Exactly. Today's topic is dog poop!

[33:23] Meg: Do you know if any other city had done it before?

[33:26] Jessica: Yes, in 1971, some town in New Jersey – they were forward thinking – and in 1971 said, scoop the poop. But it was a small community, so it wasn't getting headlines about this. But I recall, my parents never let me have a pet. I had a turtle.

[33:52] Meg: Gosh, I'm so sorry, Jessica.

[33:54] Jessica: I had a turtle named, funny enough, Max. That's our tye-in. We found our tye-in! But Max was really boring, unlike human Max. And I forgot to feed Max.

[34:11] Meg: Oh, God, Jessica. This is gonna be like the chicken.

[34:12] Jessica: Yeah. My mom told me that she gave him back to the pet store, but it's entirely possible that he died. I don't know what happened.

[34:15] Meg: Oh, my God.

[34:16] Jessica: And to be really honest, I was relieved because it stank. It was smelly like he wasn't having a good time, let's be honest.

[34:26] Meg: Mercy kill?

[34:27] Jessica: I don't know what it was. No, I don't think she killed him. Oh, for God's sake. No. For all of my mom's eccentricities, I don't think she was going to kill the turtle. I think she may have found him in a state of not living, but no. No. And I've spoken a bit about how in Yorkville and the Upper East Side generally, there is a really different vibe on the avenues and on the side streets. And on 82nd street, there were still tons and tons of tenement buildings from First Avenue, really up almost to Lexington. And if you walked down my block, I'm not exaggerating, you had to dance through the poop. It was so unreal. And I can't imagine that it was unique to 82nd street. I think any place where there are a lot of people with dogs, and these are narrow streets and who knows what the sanitation department was doing at the time. But it was like you had to look where you were walking. It wasn't like the occasional... Nowadays, like, who didn't pick it up? God damn it, I stepped in. [35:44] Meg: Well, they used to say, curb your dog, and that meant have your dog go in the street, because at least then the sanitation trucks would clean it up.

[35:54] Jessica: Exactly, that was the whole point of doing that. And no one did it.

[35:59] Meg: Well yeah, sometimes you can't tell your dog where to go to the bathroom.

[36:02] Jessica: No, you can't. And at the time, prior to 78, there was no like, what were you going to do? Pick it up?

[36:10] Meg: That is crazy. It's sort of like when recycling first started.

[36:13] Jessica: Yes.

[36:14] Meg: And people were like, wait, what? I separate my garbage? Yeah, that's never going to happen.

[36:22] Jessica: That's an extra step that doesn't work for me.

[36:30] Meg: And it's gross!

[36:31] Jessica: Yes, but what's so funny is, of course, which is fowler? Tiptoeing amongst the landmines of various poops or picking it up and throwing it away.

[36:39] Meg: Well, you know, Jessica, we did have a dog.

[36:41] Jessica: Yes.

[36:42] Meg: And I have a very vivid memory of the contraption that we got that was supposed to pick up the poo.

[36:50] Jessica: That was my next step. So the entrepreneurial souls that I mentioned... So in the 80s, people had finally gotten used to the fact that they had to pick up the poop because people were getting fined.

[37:03] Meg: Yeah, it was $500 fine. I remember that.

[37:05] Jessica: And in 1984, the city collected $4,000 in poop fines. And in order to find out, because what are you going to do? Walk down the street and be like, that's Daisy over there and that's Rex? No, you had to have someone calling to say, this person walks down my street, never picks it up. You call the precinct or you call the sanitation department and they would have to come and do surveillance and then get you. So it was like a community...

[37:50] Meg: Wow.

[37:51] Jessica: And that's when people in the city started pitting themselves against one another. And here's how it really broke down. And this cracks me up because of how so many people relate to their dogs now and how it's become normal. But it was people with children, and there was like a coalition that was like people with children against dogs. And there were dog people and the people with children who were against dogs said, and they weren't wrong, having poop all over the street is actually incredibly unsanitary and carries disease. And of course, the dog people were like, what are we going to do? Not have dogs and tell your kid to stop handling poop? Maybe that's on you. So this battle raged for quite some time, but the reason that people were not picking up is because, as you started to point out, no one wants to pick it up by hand. And in the beginning, in the same way that people were like, I'm not going to handle my garbage, the idea of picking up a steaming pile of dog poop, even though with a bag of some variety, was unthinkable. So that's the pooper scooper. Would you like to describe your pooper scooper?

[39:00] Meg: Sure. It didn't last long because it's actually very unwieldy.

[39:04] Jessica: It's trash, also. It was poorly made, if I recall.

[39:08] Meg: I'm going to say, like, maybe two and a half feet long, because you needed a lot of distance from the poo. And it was like green, and it had two handles, and it were kind of like scissors, right. Except the end were pinchers. And so you would put the bag on the end. Basically, in order to work it, it took, like 20 minutes. It was ridiculous. Nobody uses those things anymore. Everyone picks up the poo with the bag.

[39:41] Jessica: Well, there were other models. Yeah, there were many, many models that came out. I found one that was a rake, and it had metal. It was like a hoe, really, and with essentially a dust pan on a long thing so you would collect it without having the I don't know, the added attraction of the hinge that was on yours. There was another one that was designed to hold under your dog's butt.

[40:11] Meg: Good luck.

[40:11] Jessica: Like a toilet. Exactly. It's a traveling dog toilet. And the idea that the dog would remain motionless while pooping, that was by someone who's never had a dog. Now, mind you, Alfie and I'm sure Fozzie have had many occasions of just standing in one spot when pooping. But that's when they're feeling good.

[40:35] Meg: Right. That's not something you can–

[40:40] Jessica: That's when they're feeling so good, that dog is going to just, like, spray paint the neighborhood. So the dog toilet, again, a bad idea.

[40:45] Meg: Can I tell you a very scary story? [40:47] Jessica: I live for a scary poop related story.

[40:50] Meg: Oh, my God. Okay, so I grew up in a townhouse on 92nd street, and there was a woman who wore a fur coat and had a German Shepherd. And the German shepherd pooped in front of our house. And she like, every day, it was his poop place. The tree, you know?

[41:25] Jessica: I know the tree.

[42:29] Meg: The tree. And she never picked it up. Never picked it up. My father, who's somewhat volatile, yelled at her repeatedly. [41:21] Jessica: Quite rightly, I'll add. [41:24] Meg: And then she never did anything about it. And finally, it was the last straw, and he went and picked up the poo, and he smeared it on her fur coat. The story continues. A couple of nights later, he's walking. Remember, she has a German shepherd. We had a toy poodle. He's walking Madeline, our toy poodle, around the block and on 91st between Park and Lexington, the lady in the fur coat's son, who had just been led out of prison, was there drinking a beer, and he smashed the bottle on a railing and stuck it in my dad's face. I told you it's a scary story.

[42:08] Jessica: This is when I wish we had video. I've been sitting here since the word 'smeared' with my jaw hanging down in a right.

[42:16] Meg: I can't believe I never told you this. So he had a broken bottle stuck in his face. My father, again, somewhat volatile, beat the shit out of that guy, who was this young thug or whatever. And when the police showed up, they couldn't tell who was the aggressor. And the young thug was covered in blood. It was of course, my father's blood. They took them both. And I remember waking up the next morning and I went up to the bathroom and I saw my dad's shoes, like his loafer shoes, and they had blood on them. I remember seeing the spots of blood and my mom was like, he's okay, everything's going to be all right.

[42:59] Jessica: What year was this? How old were you?

[43:04] Meg: In the 80s! Sometime in the 80s. I was a young kid. Anyway, there was a trial and the judge ended up dismissing both of them, and the judge said, Both of you are wrong. Go away. You shouldn't have smeared poo on her, and you really shouldn't have stuck a broken bottle in that guy's face.

[43:21] Jessica: Well, when you started to say smeared, I didn't see the coat coming. But I will tell you that in my research, I found that in these two factions, the dog people who didn't like the no dog people would smear feces on their doors.

[43:41] Meg: Are you kidding?

[43:43] Jessica: No, I'm not kidding. So there were all kinds. It was basically the next level of leaving a flaming–

[43:49] Meg: Well, I guess I should be surprised. I just told you the craziest, most violent story that resulted from dog poo.

[43:55] Jessica: The dog poo smearing. Don't forget the classic flaming brown paper bag of dog poo. So all of this is just a step away from a classic move, honestly.

[44:10] Meg: But Jessica, where did we live?

[44:14] Jessica: That's crazy. You know, like 16th century London with people just emptying chamber pots out onto the street. And it makes you understand why people were like, I'll live in the suburbs, thanks. I don't think I need to live in shit city. That's fine with me. Okay. It was disgusting. And I recall being incredibly relieved because I could – relieved, haha – because walking home wasn't like playing hopscotch with a wide variety of canine leavings. [44:51] Meg: But isn't it so funny now that it's just second nature just to pick up the poo? [44:55] Jessica: Well, the other thing about the entrepreneurial boom of the 80s that I thought was really interesting was that prior to people wising up about this being an opportunity, in the late 70s and early 80s, what did you pick it up with? A garbage bag.

[45:11] Meg: Like a plastic bag from the grocery store.

[45:14] Jessica: Exactly. Which were everywhere, ubiquitous. Like you couldn't live without having 9000 of those, like stuffed under the kitchen sink or whatever. But then the poop bags came in. [45:27] Meg: And scented poop bags.

[45:28] Jessica: And they mentioned that in these articles that I read. Scented poop bags, decorative poop bags.

[45:34] Meg: That seems ridiculous.

[45:36] Jessica: And now biodegradable.

[45:40] Meg: That makes me feel better because we take Fozzie to the dog run and the garbage can right next to that dog run is just like filled to the brim with all of these bags of poo, obviously. And it's nice to know that that's not just landfill. [45:53] Jessica: You know there's someone in my hall in this building, who I think occasionally throws dog poop in a bag down like the trash compactor.

[56:00] Meg: Ew!

[46:51] Jessica: I know. I haven't said anything to management yet because I'm sure someone has a beef with me about something I've done. [46:11] Meg: Don't pick a fight.

[46:12] Jessica: Don't start it. Then with the onset of poop bags in the 80s came the decorative holders of poop bags.

[46:21] Meg: Oh, that's true. Fozzie has a little purse.

[46:22] Jessica: I found that the most expensive one that was ever sold was over $2,000 and encrusted in Swarovski crystals.

[46:33] Meg: Jesus, people are so silly.

[46:35] Jessica: But now, bringing this now back to our current moment, now that everybody has a dog, I've been seeing a lot more poo in the streets and it's becoming a thing again.

[46:54] Meg: Oh no! Don't go back.

[46:55] Jessica: I know. Don't go back.

[46:57] Meg: The poo wars.

[47:00] Jessica" I'm putting out an all points bulletin to the New York Sanitation Department and Police Department. Start looking for the transgressors. Find them.

[47:09] Meg: We can't have that.

[47:10] Jessica: No, but as you said, now we are a dog city. And that is absolutely beautiful.

[47:18] Meg: Yeah, I love bringing Fozzie, there's so many places that I can bring him now.

[47:22] Jessica: That's true. At one point, Ed Koch made some comment about how everything was all cleaned up. And I was like, you know, Ed... [47:39] Meg: Maybe over at Gracie Mansion. [47:41] Jessica: Exactly. We've had so many episodes during which we have talked about how during this time period in the 80s New York was fucked up. There was decay, there was housing, regulations were not enforced. People were living in flats with no running water. There are rats, I tell you! So sanitation in the city was also at an all time low. And so no wonder the rats were abundant. Not to be super disgusting, but they had something to eat always.

[48:27] Meg: Oh, absolutely, yeah. Someone once told me that he knew someone who worked at Tavern on the Green, which is in Central Park, and that the rats were the size of small dogs. At Tavern on the Green, one of the most famous restaurants. Large rats.

[48:43] Jessica: There is no restaurant in New York City that is–

[48:47] Meg: But especially a Central Park restaurant. Did you know that the boathouse is closing?

[48:52] Jessica: Yes, I saw that.

[48:53] Meg: Speaking of Central Park restaurant, that's a bummer.

[48:57] Jessica: But you know what? Someone else is going to buy that, lease the property, and do something with it. It's not like the boathouse is just going to be torn down. The way that it's being covered in the news. It's like it's closing and it's going to be torn down and reduced to rubble in 5 seconds. No, it's someone else's. Some restaurant group is going to want that, right?

[49:19] Meg: I hope so. I hope so.

[49:22] Jessica: What have we covered today? We've covered... mania.

[49:28] Meg: We've covered heroin, cocaine. [49:32] Jessica: Cocaine.

[49:33] Meg: Free basing.

[49:34] Jessica: Yes. We've covered Dirty Dancing and the Dakota yet again. And poop, which, as you know, is really my favorite topic.

[49:37] Meg: And dogs!

[49:38] Jessica: Guess what I did last night. I went to Dorian's.

[49:51] Meg: Oh, my god. Without me?

[49:55] Jessica: I know.

[49:57] Meg: Were you scoping it out for our– [49:59] Jessica: Well, I kind of was, but I went for a drink with someone who, not a New Yorker who had heard about it and wanted to go. And I'm happy to tell you that every song that was played was from the 80s. We knew every lyric of every song, every grunt, every everything.

[50:21] Meg: This sounds like fun.

[50:22] Jessica: And we ate tater tots.

[50:24] Meg: Oh, my god.

[50:25] Jessica: Tater tots and beer. So although Dorian's is not giving us a plug, all I'm going to say is forget these places. They're like, it's an 80s recreation. You never have to go there because it's never changed. It is the same. So that was kind of fun. But we will go and let's report on Dorian's and all that it has in its checkered past soon.

[50:50] Meg: Absolutely. It's a date.

[50:52] Jessica: All right.