[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City where we still live

[00:29] Meg: And where we podcast about New York City in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:34] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:35] Meg: And today, Jessica, I'd like to share with you something from BFF of the cast, Ben. Ben. Ben, who was writing to me about other things. And then he said, by the way, I've been meaning to write to tell you that your and Jessica's parents falling in love over two Thanksgivings is, and this is in all caps, incredibly, Hannah and Her Sisters, and I'm sure we all think Woody is horrible, but it's still such a good 80's New York movie.

[01:05] Jessica: Oh, my God. It's true. Just when you think you're not living in a Woody Allen movie, they pull you back in.

[01:27] Meg: Jessica, do you remember the first time you voted for President?

[01:31] Jessica: Well, I only remember one thing about it.

[01:35] Meg: Okay.

[01:36] Jessica: Which was I was convinced I was going to do it wrong and vote Republican the whole way down.

[01:42] Meg: Did you vote, because you were in Ohio, did you vote in Ohio in 1988 for Dukakis because you were in college already, or did you vote in New York? Do you remember?

[01:52] Jessica: I voted in New York.

[01:54] Meg: Okay, interesting. I registered in Rhode Island.

[01:58] Jessica: Oh, no, I never registered anything in Ohio. No, I was barely in Ohio. I was, like, on the Kenyon campus. That was it.

[02:09] Meg: Well, my story today is not about the 1988 presidential election, but you will understand why I gave you that engagement question.

[02:18] Jessica: Okay. I'm excited. I'm going to lean back and get engaged.

[02:22] Meg: Okay. My sources are The Washington Post, The New York Times, Speakola.

[02:30] Jessica: Is that Speakola?

[02:32] Meg: Speakola.

[02:33] Jessica: Speakola is not a thing. How is it pronounced? Why would it be like rock ola? Ola is a normal suffix. Yeah. Speakola. That's like a really rich pasta dish that you could only order a half portion.

[02:52] Meg: Do you have any idea what this is or should I tell you?

[02:53] Jessica: I'm already too excited about Speakola. All right, go ahead.

[02:57] Meg: Speakola.

[02:58] Jessica: Speak-ola.

[03:00] Meg: It's a website that has transcripts of speeches.

[03:03] Jessica: Yes, which is why it would not be Speakola. It would be speak-ola.

[03:09] Meg: I'm thinking of, like, Ricola.

[03:10] Jessica: Yeah, I know you are, but that's not, you asked me to fix it whenever you had a weird pronunciation.

[03:18] Meg: That's true. That's very, very true. All right. And the Anti-Defamation league website. On January 16, 1984, at Tendley Baptist Church in Philadelphia, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, the civil rights leader, running for the Democratic Presidential nomination, made what would be eventually called his David and Goliath speech. Quote, "It's time for a new course, a new coalition a new leadership. Red, yellow, black and white we are all precious in God's sight. Somebody got to rise above race, rise above sex, a new leadership, a choice, a chance. Don't cry about what you don't have. Use what you got. Reagan won the last time, not by genius. Reagan won when we were asleep. He won by the margin of despair. He won by the margin, the fracture of our coalition. He won by the margin of racial division. He won by default." Jackson was the second African American after Shirley Chisholm to mount a nationwide campaign for President as a Democrat. And in 1984, he was holding his own in the primary against Gary Hart and Walter Mondale.

[04:35] Jessica: I remember this, and I remember that he was doing really well because Gary Hart was on his way to his giant scandal and Mondale was an unspeakable snooze. He had, like, the personality of an oyster. So. Yes, I remember this.

[04:52] Meg: Yeah. So, yeah, it was like, this might work. Less than a month later, in the February 13 the edition of The Washington Post, Rick Atkinson wrote about how Jesse Jackson had, in a private conversation referred to New Yorkers as Hymies and New York as Hymietown.

[05:13] Jessica: It was a great day for American Jewery.

[05:18] Meg: In early February, Milton Coleman, another reporter for The Post had interviewed Jackson over breakfast during his campaign through the south. Jackson had recently returned from Syria where he had negotiated the release of captured Navy pilot Lieutenant Robert O. Goodman, Jr. In general, Jackson had made it known that he felt U.S. policy in the Middle East unfairly favored Israel at the expense of America's best interests. He was not a fan of a policy that, quote, "excites one nation, meaning Israel, and incites 23 others, meaning the Arab world." Given his recent trip, Milton Coleman over this breakfast asked Jackson to speak more on his foreign policy, specifically Israel and the Middle East. Jesse Jackson replied, quote, "let's talk black talk." Coleman, who was black, understood this to mean not, quote "off the record" but rather quote "on background." In other words, what Jackson was about to say would be attributed in print to sources close to Jackson rather than Jackson himself. Milton wondered to himself what Jackson's on background phrase was for white reporters, but he didn't ask. The conversation was not recorded and Milton did not take notes. But he recalled Jackson saying something to the effect of "that's all Hymie wants to talk about is Israel. Every time you go to Hymietown, that's all they want to talk about." Milton was certain about the use of Hymie and Hymietown. He wasn't into Gotcha journalism and was unclear about how offensive the term was. He had certainly heard slurs that were unabashedly antisemitic. In his opinion, Hymietown was shy of that. Now, this was not the first time Jackson had made controversial remarks about Jewish people. In 1979, he said he was, quote, "sick and tired of hearing about the Holocaust"

[07:25] Jessica: Always a crowd please. Dummy.

[07:31] Meg: And that, quote, "Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering." Considering he was asking for the liberal vote and many liberals are Jewish, there were a number of reporters on the campaign trail in 1984 who were curious about Jackson's views that's when Rick Atkinson entered the picture, he asked his colleague Milton, because he knew that Milton had been covering the campaign about what he knew about Jackson. And after some soul searching, Milton told him what Jackson had said over breakfast. After Atkinson printed it in The Washington Post, Jackson denied all with a simple quote "that's not accurate." But the story wasn't going away. An editorial in The Post exclaimed, quote "the offense here is not against any one group in American life, but against all. It is not typical we think of the way any large number of Americans usually talk and certainly not of the way they want political leaders to talk. It is degrading and disgusting. What does Mr. Jackson have to say?" Jesse Jackson denied, denied, denied for more than a week. And then on the Sunday before the New Hampshire primary, he appeared at Temple Adath Yeshurun in Manchester and said, quote, "I was shocked and astonished that this ethnic characterization made in a private conversation apparently was overheard by a reporter. I am dismayed. The subject so small has become so large that it threatens relationships long in the making and those relationships must be protected. However innocent and unintentional the remark was insensitive and it was wrong. In part I am to blame, for that I am deeply distressed. I categorically deny that this in any way reflects my basic attitude towards Jews or Israel."

[09:33] Jessica: So who's the other part?

[09:35] Meg: Good question. I think it seems to me like he was kind of blaming Milton. He also mischaracterized and they had breakfast together. He didn't overhear anything.

[09:45] Jessica: It also sounded to me like it's also the fault of the oversensitive on the receiving end. But who knows? Maybe he meant Coleman.

[09:55] Meg: Ed Koch announced that New Yorkers, oops, would be, quote, "crazy to vote for Jackson." Then Louis Farrakhan, the leader of the Black Muslim group the Nation of Islam chimed in.

[10:12] Jessica: Oh, that's going to go well.

[10:16] Meg: In a radio sermon, he said that Milton Coleman was a traitor to his race and should be punished for the pain he caused Jackson. He also warned Jewish people that if they hurt Jackson, it would be the last, quote, "black brother they would harm." Jesse Jackson called Farrakhan's remarks counterproductive and wrong, but he didn't disavow him. Louis Farrakhan had a huge influence over young urban black men and prior to Jackson's run for President preached that black people shouldn't even vote because politics were just a method of white exploitation. So when Farrakhan decided to endorse Jesse Jackson, there was a lot of excitement in the Jackson campaign because now they got lots of votes coming their way. Right? The downside that Jackson tried to sidestep was that Farrakhan praised Hitler and called Judaism a, quote, "gutter religion."

[11:17] Jessica: Nice.

[11:18] Meg: When Jackson was called out for his tepid response to Farrakhan's threats. He noted that Ronald Reagan had never disavowed the Ku Klux Klan when they endorsed his Presidential run. Ultimately, Jackson got 80% of the black vote and came in third in the 1984 Democratic primary behind Gary Hart and Walter Mondale. And finally, in June 1984, after Farrakhan said that the creation of Israel was, quote, "an outlaw act and that those who support it were, quote, "criminals in the sight of Almighty God"," Jackson called his remarks, quote, "reprehensible and morally indefensible." And at the Democratic National Convention, Jackson gave a more full throated apology. Quote, "if in my low moments, in word, deed or attitude, through some error of temper, taste or tone, I have caused anyone discomfort, created pain, or revived someone's fears, that was not my truest self, Blacks and Jews are bound by shared blood and shared sacrifices." Perhaps many forgave, but few forgot. Rabbi Robert J. Marx, founder of the Jewish Council on Urban Affairs in Chicago, said of Jackson, quote, "everyone wants to say Jesse is an anti-Semite or is not an anti-Semite, but he's more complex. He's a humanitarian. When Jews are attacked, he will rise to their defense. But his blind spot is his perception of Jewish power. He has a problem with thinking Jews have more power than they have." The Anti-Defamation League has tracked incidents of documented reports of harassment, vandalism, and violence directed against Jews since 1979. 2021 was the highest year on record, and 2022 may end up being even higher. Side note about the rise in anti-Semitism since the 80s. Okay. Starting in the early 80s, this is all very interesting, by the way, to me.

[13:29] Jessica: I'm riveted. I'm on the literally edge of my seat.

[13:33] Meg: Like, in the 60s, they were working together a lot during the Civil rights movement, right?

[13:39] Jessica: Yeah. Let me also remind you that 1965 was a mere 20 years after the end of World War II. This was still fresh. It was very difficult at the time to say the Holocaust never happened. The farther we get away from it, the easier it is to ignore. And that's, good point, and that's what this is.

[14:03] Meg: Alright, so, interesting, though, that the 80s started this swell. Starting in the early 80s, classic right wing, anti-Semitic scapegoating conspiracy theories began to seep into progressive circles, including stories about how a, quote, "New World Order, also called the Shadow Government, or the Octopus, was manipulating world governments. Anti-semitic conspiracism was peddled aggressively by right wing groups. Some on the left adopted the rhetoric, which was made possible by their lack of knowledge about the history of fascism and its use of scapegoating, reductionist and simplistic solutions. Demagoguery and a conspiracy theory of history". I just think that's pretty interesting that now you've got both extreme sides of the spectrum buying into these weird tropes about power.

[15:00] Jessica: That's what I was looking up while I was listening to you, because something a little light went off in my head in the same way that I just said that the Holocaust gets farther away, people can deny. A lot of people have forgotten that Farrakhan is who he is.

[15:19] Meg: Really? Yes.

[15:20] Jessica: And I'm going to read something to you right now from 2020. And this article from The Daily Beast is so scared. Completely reflected, like, well researched. This is clearly substantiated. Okay, on Sunday so this was June 17, 2020. On Sunday, in lieu of posting Instagram friendly protest content, discussing white fragility in the Zoom Book Club, or recording a mortifyingly, tone deaf PSA renouncing racism, the comedian Chelsea Handler shared a video clip to her 3.9 million Instagram followers. The clip featured Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam, during a 1990 appearance on The Phil Donahue Show. In the clip, Farrakhan attempts to educate the rowdy majority white daytime TV audience on the subject of white supremacy. Quote "I really don't think you fully understand what has happened to these people you look at as second class or inferior citizens in this nation," Farrakhan explains, "Black people who were brought to this country were stripped of their names, language, culture, religion, God, and taken totally away from the history of themselves. Here are 30 million people who don't wear their own names. They wear your names." Handler's post was accompanied by the caption quote "I learned a lot from watching this powerful video" and has been viewed more than 1.8 million times. It was shared by the Oscar nominated actress Jessica Chastain to her 3.2 million Instagram followers via her Instagram story, as well as the actress/ influencer Jameela Jamil to her 3 million followers. Handler's clip also garnered likes from fellow celebrities Jennifer Aniston, Michelle Pfeiffer, and Jennifer Garner, and received laudatory comments from the actor Sean Hayes and actress Lisa Rinna. After receiving backlash in the comments, Handler posted a disclaimer of sorts. Quote "Another thing, perhaps Farrakhan's anti-semitic views took form during his own oppression. We know now that oppression of one race leads to an oppression of all races." Parenthetical statement Chastain and Jameela have since deleted the videos. Handler has not. The Southern Poverty Law Center has branded Farrakhan's Nation of Islam as a hate group for its theology of innate black superiority over whites and the deeply racist, anti-semitic and anti-LGBT rhetoric. In 1984, Farrakhan praised Hitler, saying, "he's a very great man." During a 1985 speech in New York, he said of Jews, "and don't you forget, when it's God who puts you in the ovens, it's forever."

[18:12] Meg: Oh, my God.

[18:13] Jessica: So here's the thing. People don't educate themselves, and in my opinion, because of social media and everything is a buzz word or a clip or a photo op, whatever it is, people are looking at that as the entirety of the story, and they don't bother to educate themselves. If Chelsea Handler said, oh, he's wonderful, then I like Chelsea Handler. So he must be. Right. The number of followers that those women had is I'm not looking at it now, so I have to do quick math in my head. But it was somewhere around 10 million followers, so that's 10 million followers who then shared it. So that's to me what this is all about, that people like Farrakhan, and there are all kinds of horrible people. It's not just Farrakhan, obviously, but all kinds of horrible people can have one great sound bite and get insta-famous for being fabulous.

[19:25] Meg: Well, yeah. I mean, one of the reasons why I thought this was a good rip from the headlines this week is because of Trump's dinner with Ye and Nick Fuentes.

[19:36] Jessica: Fucking morons. I'm not afraid to say it.

[19:39] Meg: Facts are that anti-Semitism is on an upswing, and that's pretty disturbing.

[19:43] Jessica: It is of such incredible concern and the fact that people who are not even died in the wool Trumpers are loath to acknowledge his influence in the degradation of so many groups of people who are both minorities and not, but in this country, that's what's mind blowing to me.

[20:07] Meg: That's the other thing about Jesse Jackson's apologies. And I read all of them because I didn't want to just lambast him, but they're all - if I offended anyone, under these conditions - there's no full throated, I fucked up because that is wrong. It's all very defensive, and you have to take it into context. I mean, Reagan didn't disavow Ku Klux Klan like he should have, but does that mean we all get to be evil? What the fuck is that?

[20:44] Jessica: Yes, I am equally astonished. My only answer to that is so simple. It's what Demagogue is going to say he's wrong. His platform is about total rightness. He has made himself into the arbiter of what is right for the Black community. And if he ever says one thing wrong, then he's condemning his community. So Demagogue never says, I did something wrong. That humanizes. Can't be a human. You have to have a godlike status.

[21:21] Meg: And to his credit, he did do wonderful things, and he's still with us. He's done wonderful things for the Black community, and in recent years he did vociferously support Joe Lieberman and Bernie Sanders, maybe because we're doing this podcast, I would like to hear some of these people who are still walking amongst us reference some of their fuck ups from the 80's and really tell us. I mean, this new documentary, Al Sharpton documentary is out and from what I hear, he does not apologize for Tawana Brawley. I'm like, guys, learn in your decades of life that perhaps saying, I'm sorry and this is why I thought that way and if I could do it over, I would do it differently. That doesn't make you lose any standing in my mind.

[22:16] Jessica: But who wants to pick a scab that they can conveniently ignore, they're not being called on the carpet?

[22:23] Meg: Well, if you're going to produce a documentary about yourself I don't know if he's produced it, but it's definitely authorized biography, documentary. If you're going to do that, then you kind of have to tell the whole story. You can't just pick and choose. We have to see it. I mean, I'll see it. I'll see it, and I'll do I.

[22:41] Jessica: Don'T know if we can see it in the same room, because we'll both be shrieking.

[22:44] Meg: Because the last time we talked about Al, we were not kind.

[22:48] Jessica: I will remain unrepentant.

[22:50] Meg: Actually, that's not true. I've told two different Al Sharpton stories, and one, I was really impressed by what he did, and the other one I was absolutely appalled.[

22:57] Jessica: Look, no one is all good or all bad. And we know that.

[23:02] Meg: That's why apologies are so great.

[23:04] Jessica: I think that the other thing that Trump did as much, along with inciting a lot of hate, is he made it very clear how unappealing it is when a political figure is not interested in any kind of humanization of themselves, of their profiles, of the way they present. Like, he couldn't be wrong.

[23:28] Meg: Well, exactly.

[23:29] Jessica: And never ever being wrong gets old pretty quickly. The other thing, though, is there's a lot of discussion of, like, old white men and how they're entrenched in their ways, and they're never going to change. Look, old men.

[23:46] Meg: Yes.

[23:46] Jessica: Okay. Louis Farrakhan, 87. No, he's 89. Is he dead? Maybe he's dead. I don't know. Let's look it up. But all of these people are old now.

[23:59] Meg: They're very old.

[24:00] Jessica: And I think that.

[24:04] Meg: Before they die, they have a chance.

[24:06] Jessica: Well, let's get them on the show. If we got Louis Farrakhan on this show, could you imagine?

[24:10] Meg: Oh, my God.

[24:11] Jessica: Oh, my God. My father would show up and, like, have a few choice words. Dad, if you're listening, we're not doing it. No, he's still alive. Did you know that he was a calypso singer? Farrakhan?

[24:27] Meg: I didn't know that.

[24:28] Jessica: Yeah. These are old men.

[24:31] Meg: I know. I'm not holding my breath.

[24:33] Jessica: No. This is who they are. And I think that the other thing that I struggle with, and I'm not in any way saying that I'm right. This is just my feeling. When you do so much damage, you've dropped the pebble in the pond, and the ripples are still making their way to the shoreline. No matter what good you do, you can't unring the bell, you can't undo the damage that you've done. To go back to what your presentation is about, Hymietown will never go away.

[25:08] Meg: Right. But he could have handled it very differently, and he had many opportunities to handle it differently, and he chose not to.

[25:17] Jessica: You and I are saying the same thing. I'm just saying that everything that he did afterwards, that's good for the people who were so deeply wounded and could see the effects of his saying that at the time, and how those ripples are still getting to the shoreline, it doesn't matter. He will always be that guy. Okay. Meg.

[25:50] Meg: Yes.

[25:51] Jessica: I have an engagement question. What subject matter do you think I am least likely to bring to the table here that I have the least knowledge of?

[26:02] Meg: That's a crazy engagement question.

[26:04] Jessica: It's not. It's actually not.

[26:06] Meg: I can't think in the negative.

[26:08] Jessica: Anything having to do with Hip Hop or Rap.

[26:10] Meg: Oh, that's true.

[26:11] Jessica: Yeah. Ding, ding, ding. Yes. I have limitations, and that is one of them. Yes. Okay. However, we have a friend of the podcast, our friend Mark W, who has on several occasions asked me to talk about sports of the 80's and Hip Hop/Rap.

[26:35] Meg: Wow. And he's met you.

[26:35] Jessica: Yes, he knows me quite well. And yet he said, I think that his thinking is simply what needs to be presented rather than, what am I equipped to do? So with that in mind, I tried to think of what I could talk about in the world of Rap in the 80s. That would not be me really having to talk about Rap.

[27:03] Meg: Okay.

[27:03] Jessica: Right. This is, like, a hard one. Right. So I was like, what do I do? What do I do?

[27:09] Meg: Speaking of sports, this is the wind up.

[27:12] Jessica: Yes, exactly. I thought, well, Rappers are artists.

[27:17] Meg: Okay.

[27:18] Jessica: What were they talking about? Their music was a reflection of their times. So maybe there was something going on that can bring me into this subject matter, and lo and behold, yes, there was. Great. So in another unlikely move, I am not going to talk about Manhattan today. Oh. We're going on a trip to one of those boroughs where we've been very infrequently. We're going to Queens.

[27:46] Meg: Queens.

[27:47] Jessica: Yes. What I found out is that one of the people at the center of Rap music and music production at the time was Irv Gotti. Okay. Which was not his real name. Irv Gotti started life as Irving Domingo Lorenzo Jr. Born, he's our contemporary. Born in 1970. He was an up and coming producer, and he was watching A&E and saw, like, a promo, a bumper for on for something about Murder Incorporated, which was the Jewish gangsters of Brownsville, which is where my father grew up.

[28:33] Meg: Right.

[28:34] Jessica: And he was like, that is the best name because I want to make killer hits.

[28:37] Meg: Okay.

[28:38] Jessica: Right. Fun. Mystifyingly considering that that was a Jewish organization, he took on the name Gotti, but that's okay. He was being artistic. G-O-T-T-I okay. Yes. And I'm pronouncing every now and then, my New York accent really comes out. And Gotti (Gotti) is one of them. There you go. And he produced Ashanti, Ja Rule, Jennifer Lopez, Jay Z, DMX, Kanye. So what I found very interesting was that life imitated art imitated life with Murder Incorporated records because Gotti and his brother wound up getting caught up in a police sting or an investigation because they were linked to the most murderous drug dealers in Queens.

[29:36] Meg: Oh.

[29:37] Jessica: Yes and that group and I didn't realize a documentary has just come out about them, which I'm going to watch after this, called the supreme just Supreme Team, okay? And it was a whole drug ring operation, getting cocaine from Colombians and making it into crack and selling on the streets with huge numbers of people. How do they have time for this if they're also making music? No, these are just gangsters. These are separate. Okay? But they were using Murder Incorporated or it was alleged to launder money. Oh, okay. So Supreme Team was a full blown like, they ruled the drug world in Queens in the 80s. Okay? So they were big. So the leader of it was Kenneth "Supreme" McGriff and his cousin, his nephew Gerald "Prince" Miller. McGriff was the brains of the operation. He was the one who made everything happen. They were bringing in $200,000 a day. So they had big, big money. So McGriff was the brains, but Miller was the enforcer. And they wound up having so many murders pile up because that was their way of disciplining people. You didn't get a lot of chances with Supreme Team. You fucked up, you're dead. Literally.

[31:04] Meg: And did they only stay in Queens or did they branch out?

[31:09] Jessica: My understanding is that they stayed in Queens and their headquarters was in South Jamaica, in the area where they live. And they never changed their location, which is kind of ballsy as well. And I think at one point they were even working out of, like, one of their mom's apartment. So they had this huge thing going on and they were just piling up murders, and they had drug dealing going on anyway, and they had their tentacles in a lot of different pots. I was too interested in what these artists were saying about Supreme Team.

[31:47] Meg: Okay, so the artists knew about the Supreme Team.

[31:52] Jessica: They were an integral part of that.

[31:54] Meg: Whole because they were helping launder the money.

[31:57] Jessica: I think that there are some of these Rap artists who started out in not so seemly occupations like drug dealing. Yes. Okay. So I wanted to see what the story was with some of the lyrics. And I think that the three that I found were Nas and 50 Cent and Jay Z. Oh, and by the way, 50 Cent wrote a song called Ghetto Quran. Okay? And the lyrics clearly are just chronicling Supreme Team. So there is a constant repetition of the N word in this song. And I'm just going to say N word. Lord, forgive me for I've sinned over and over again just to stay on top. I recall memories filled with sin over and over again and again. Yo, when you hear talk of the South Side, you hear talk of the Team, see n words feared Prince and respected 'Preme. For all you slow motherfuckers I'ma break it down iller. See, 'Preme was a businessman and Prince was the killer. Remember he used to push the bulletproof BM. I don't know what that is other than in my sanitized world the bulletproof BM. His hair'll get you seasick, I sat back and peeped shit. They rolled with E-Z Wider then, they ain't get blunted had the whole project, I guess it was a project had the whole projects working for 50 on 500. As a youth, all I ever did was sell crack. I used to idolize Cat. Hurt me to my heart to hear that N word snitched on Pap. How he go out like that? So in this song, he's actually, like, telling, calling them out in the most outrageous way. Rumors in the hood was Gus was snitching. I ain't believe that, pa, he helped me cop my first GSXR. Had four runner, oh I guess it's a car. Had the 4-runner, the Z, the 5 and the 3 used to drive his truck through the hood dragging jet skis. From Gerald Wallace to Baby Wise, don't be surprised of how freely I throw out names of guys who dealt with pies like L.A. and Wise, L got shot in the neck, then told us connect them n words who shot them, got 'em for ten bricks. Fucking Dominicans turned around and gave 'em more bricks. And it goes on from there, just naming names over and over.

[34:32] Meg: I mean, to me it's sounding like a regional fable.

[34:36] Jessica: Yes, well said. They were so ubiquitous and they wound up because they wound up getting involved with Murder Incorporated and then the Rap scene. Their profile was just huge.

[34:53] Meg: But did people know what they were hearing, necessarily?

[34:57] Jessica: Yes. Well, I mean, not people who were listening to Rap in Cleveland, right? No, exactly. No. It was the parable of the borough of Queens. Supreme got involved with getting Jay Z's first record out and it wasn't going to be released at all. But Supreme liked it and encouraged it to be released and then helped to get it played on radio stations along with Irv Gotti. You know how Notorious B-I-G was killed and 50 Cent was shot like he should have been dead. These guys were responsible for those shooting. At the time I remember hearing about these gang shootings East Coast, West Coast and all of that. So this was East Coast. Okay. This was the shooting. I have to say I was stunned, and what I was stunned by is exactly what I set out to find. And you just said so perfectly that I had no idea that these lyrics, so many lyrics, I'm sure, are the oral history of New York City in the 80s, which is when all of this was happening. And I remember I only listened to, like, Run DMC and stuff like that, where it was extremely commercial. But this stuff was really telling exactly what happened. I am now compelled to go and read all of this and go into a rabbit hole of who was talking about who and what should the DA have been listening to?

[36:33] Meg: Well, I watched a documentary that I need to rewatch and take notes on, because obviously at some point I have to talk about the crack epidemic and

[36:42] Jessica: Crack Is Whack.

[36:44] Meg: Crack Is Whack. So some of this sounds a little familiar to me, but it's on my list of things to explore in more detail.

[36:55] Jessica: Our friend Nick said not so long ago because you and I were saying, like, oh, aren't socialites no longer around? And he was like, everything is still around. You're just not in that circle anymore. You don't see it. And I was thinking about how woefully uninformed we are about so much. And I think that on this podcast, we've really focused a lot. And it was our mission, certainly for our first season, to talk about everything that we experienced growing up. And I think that what's really interesting me now is my own ignorance and how much was happening that I didn't even know about as a kid and could probably only appreciate now as an adult. Because at the time, what teenage girl in prep school is going to be like, yeah, I'm really down with 50 Cent and whatever this gang war is. Not at all. Although I do have a friend who said to me that in the 90s he once smoked crack. He was in a hotel room with someone he didn't know very well, and the guy was like, hey, I've got some crack. Do you want to smoke some crack? And he was like, Well, I'm here. Might as well try it. I'm sure he was blazing on something else at the time. And he said that in that moment that he smoked that rock, he completely understood why people were killing each other at the time. He said, I looked at the guy during the peak of that very short high, and he knew in his soul that he would kill that guy just to get more. He was like, I'm very happy to throw you right out the window. Oh, my God. Right? And this is not someone who is violent. This is a real lover, not a fighter person. So I was like, you've got to be kidding. He's like, yeah, I think I've never been scared straight until that. He was like, that made me realize they're not making decisions. They've fried their brains so badly in that moment. So that's one thing I know about someone close to me who smoked crack and who says crack is whack. So that's my rambling first time ever foray into the world.

[39:16] Meg: I know it's a little scary when you actually have no point of reference to I mean, not that you have no point of reference, but when it is very foreign, like, how do you start to approach it all?

[39:26] Jessica: Well, I think that that's why it really struck me when you said it's like a fable, because that's how I'm reading it now. And it's like, all right, this is my new rabbit hole. So Mark if you're listening, it's going to be all Rap all the time. This is it. And I think I'm going to have to Rap whatever I choose next time, so tune in.

[40:01] Meg: So what's our tie in?

[40:06] Jessica: You mean what's our wildly uncomfortable tie in that neither one of us really wants to talk about?

[40:15] Meg: Yes, we are underqualified for the subject matters of today's episode.

[40:21] Jessica: You know what? I applaud us for going out on a limb and trying to investigate the 1980s African American Black American experience in a very narrow sliver. And we did not plan that. No, we really hit listeners with both barrels today, which I know throughout this entire podcast has had both of us squirming and trying not to make eye contact.

[40:49] Meg: I hope we did an okay job.

[40:51] Jessica: I'm sure it was terrible, that's all. But we did it. We're not shying away from topics that are not in our wheelhouse, and I think that that is what we can do with our listeners. We are going to grow and learn and force you all to do it with us. So, yeah, that's our tie in. Great. So glad we got there.

[41:23] Meg: And we're going to take Christmas and Hanukkah off again.

[41:28] Jessica: Your pronunciation makes me want to fall out the window. Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights of Hanukkah, chanuka, Chinuka. Say it like a New Yorker. Ready? Hanukkah. Yes.

[41:52] Meg: We are taking Hanukkah

[41:53] Jessica: Hanukkah and Christmas off. Oh, but you know yes. Why don't you ever fuck that up? Sorry, Dad. Too much cursing. Why don't you ever screw that one up?

[42:06] Meg: Christmas.

[42:08] Jessica: It is the mass of Christ and Hanukkah.

[42:14] Meg: BFF of the podcast Kate. Yes, hi Kate! Suggested that perhaps as a Christmas.

[42:19] Jessica: Hanukkah gift to all of our listeners. Now I can't stop. I've ruined you.

[42:28] Meg: I'm so glad that we list all of or as many as we can remember of the movies that we've talked about on the podcast, because that might be a fun thing for people to reference over the holiday.

[42:42] Jessica: Yes, I think that's a great thing. Maybe we'll even throw in, like, which are Meg's favorites and which are Jessica's favorites. Anyway, yes, I think that's a great idea. Thank you, Kate. We're going to do that.

[42:55] Meg: Happy holidays.

[42:57] Jessica: Happy holidays. And we'll catch you before the very end of 2022. There you go.