[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City.

[00:26] Meg: And where we podcast about New York City in the '80s. I do ripped from the headlines

[00:33] Jessica: And I do Pop Culture.

[00:34] Meg: Jessica. Guess who also remembers the woman from Feminists Fighting Pornography, except he remembers them as I do from 86th street and Lexington.

[00:45] Jessica: I know that it's our friend Alex, because he texted me about it, and I said, Meg knows everything about the skinny lady.

[00:54] Meg: The skinny lady who was not Andrea Dworken, who was not skinny. This woman was named Paige, and fortunately, Jeremiah's Vanishing New York, which is incredible. I think you've used it before. Yeah, it's incredible. I'm quoting from Vanishing New York. Now and then I think about a certain character from the old East Village with her folding table and anti pornography signs. She was vibrant and angry, intimidating and exciting. Her voice and the cadence she used to call out her mantra, "sign the petition" has stayed in people psyches over the years. Now and then some of us find ourselves still saying it in our heads or out loud to friends spontaneously, as if we are conjuring old ghosts. Sign the petition.

[01:42] Jessica: Wow.

[01:43] Meg: I know.

[01:43] Jessica: Vivid. Is that how you remember her sounding?

[01:47] Meg: Absolutely and also that she was scary.

[01:49] Jessica: I just remember the scary part. To be quite honest, I don't remember what she sounded like.

[01:54] Meg: Yeah, people remember some scary things about her. Anyway.

[01:59] Jessica: That is fun.

[02:00] Meg: It is fun. I didn't dream it.

[02:01] Jessica: I remember. No, no of course you didn't dream it. You started hallucinating later in life.

[02:08] Meg: And also, one of my neighbors was listening to our podcast about Fame. A Musical + A Massacre, I think is the name of that episode. Anyway, she remembered that Irene Cara actually grew up across the street from us on 23rd street.

[02:27] Jessica: No way. Really?

[02:28] Meg: Crazy. I know. I had no idea. I mean, I didn't grow up on 23rd street, but my neighbor did. Cool.

[02:34] Jessica: Love it.

[02:45] Meg: Another thing about my neighbor. She was an extra in Fame. Completely forgot to mention that.

[02:52] Jessica: Bury the lead, man. I know. Well, of course she remembered Irene Cara. She was probably like, hey, can I get a speaking line?

[03:01] Meg: And she went to the High School of Music & Art. Anyway, so thank you, Susie, for reaching out. It's very cool to hear that.

[03:05] Jessica: Thank you.

[03:06] Meg: Okay, your engagement question. Did you ever have any weird dealings with cops when we were growing up?

[03:16] Jessica: Is that based on my later exploits? Is that why you're asking? Did I ever have weird encounters with cops?

[03:24] Meg: Or any encounter? I guess I'm trying to get at, like, your initial well, how did you feel about cops when you were little? And was that from an actual interaction or hearsay?

[03:35] Jessica: I don't think I ever thought about them for even a second. And I would say that in hindsight, nothing. I can't recall anything. Nothing resonates. But let's not forget Curtis Sliwa and his guys do. So I remember the Guardian Angels, and I don't remember the NYPD.

[03:55] Meg: Interesting. Very interesting.

[03:58] Jessica: I mean, I remember that it was much more common to have cops on the street. Beat cops. The idea of a billy club was something that was like a real thing. And I remember, of course, John, and every story I have is like, my older brother and I thought, blah, blah, blah was hilarious. But we went through a phase of being a little obsessed with billy clubs. I don't know why, but in this moment, that's all that I can recall.

[04:30] Meg: Well, you know, when Amanda and I were mugged, certainly on 92nd and 5th, between 5th and Madison, I'll tell that whole story another time, but when the cops showed up, they wanted us, and we were teenage girls, we were 16 year old girls to sit in the backseat of their squad car with them. And Amanda's mother lived on 89th street.

[04:55] Jessica: I remember vividly that building.

[04:57] Meg: Yeah. And she came running over, of course, as soon as the neighbors called her, because we told everybody who we were and call our parents and everything. So Amanda's mother came running over, and when she saw us in the backseat of that squad car with policemen, she lost her mind. She was like, oh, no, get out. Get out of that car. And that was the first time that I was like, she doesn't trust them.

[05:22] Jessica: Wow.

[05:23] Meg: Very interesting. Yeah.

[05:27] Jessica: Okay, where's this going?

[05:29] Meg: My sources are.

[05:30] Jessica: Okay.

[05:32] Meg: The New York Times, Buddy Boys: When Good Cops Turn Bad, which is a book by Mike McAlary and New York Magazine. On Tuesday, September 23, 1986 police officer Brian O'Regan of the 77th precinct turned on Channel Four news and heard that he was being suspended along with twelve other cops from his precinct. The 77th, which served Crown Heights and the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhoods of Brooklyn, had a horrible reputation. In the mid '80s, the rate of violent crime in Bed-Stuy was 80% higher than the citywide average, with nearly twice as many murders per capita as in the city as a whole. It was infested with drugs and also desperately poor. Twice as many of its residents lived in poverty in 1980 than in the city as a whole. More than a third of local households received public assistance, and the only line of defense the residents had against crime were the officers of the 77th. But the problem was, no one wanted to work there. So the precinct became a dumping ground for police with disciplinary issues. What happens when you put a bunch of rogue cops in the same house?

[06:51] Jessica: Nothing good.

[06:53] Meg: Exactly. They go for broke. The cops of the 77th would steal money off dead bodies.

[07:00] Jessica: Wait, what?

[07:02] Meg: Oh, that's the least of it. Pocket confiscated cash from drug busts, steal anything of value from the homes they were called on to protect. But after a while, that felt like small potatoes. They started staging burglaries of their own. When one of them heard of a good place to rob, maybe a drug dealer with a lot of cash they would radio the entire squad with the code Buddy Bob. Officers who were interested in getting in on the action would show up at a local park and get their marching orders. Were there any good cops in the 77? Not a lot. And the few who were clean would never turn in a fellow cop.

[07:46] Jessica: Doesn't that automatically make them not clean?

[07:49] Meg: Well, it's really interesting because if you're a good cop, you would think that would mean you're law and order, right? But actually, in their vernacular, good cop means you won't turn in a fellow cop. Doesn't matter what he does.

[08:05] Jessica: Interesting.

[08:06] Meg: Right. So when they would say, Is he good? Is he good? That meant, will he not turn me in if I do something wrong? They lived by the blue code of silence and it was hard to stay clean even if you had the best intentions to start. Brian O'Regan had moved back to Brooklyn after his father died. He was happy when he was policing in Fort Lauderdale where he had moved during the financial crisis of 1975. But he wanted to be close to his mom because, you know, his dad died. So he came home and was assigned to the 77th. He found himself in a combat zone where each year saw as many as 80 people murdered, 100 raped, 400 shot, and more than 3000 robbed in the 77th.

[08:49] Jessica: And just for reference, how many block, like, square is that? A mile? Like a square mile? Like what? What are we dealing with here? So people can get a frame of reference for, like, 80 murders? In what area?

[09:03] Meg: We can look that up. I can visualize it on a map, but I don't know what the mileage is. So let's remind me to look that up. And we can do that in the next segment because that is interesting. He would arrest a guy for drugs or gun possession and then see him on the street the very next day and his life was on the line every day. It was really dangerous to be a cop and he depended on his fellow officers to keep him alive. And this dependency also led to very poor choices. In his first week on the job, he and his partner were called to a dress shop. The plate glass window had been smashed in. Brian watched as his partner went straight to the cash register of the shop and grabbed a bunch of bills. His partner handed him $150, and Brian accepted it.

[09:51] Jessica: Oh, Brian.

[09:53] Meg: But, you know, he's like a rookie and this guy is

[09:57] Jessica: No, it's peer pressure. It's a classic.

[10:03] Meg: Brian soon discovered that sometimes cops would make fake 911 calls saying a place was being robbed just so they could respond and empty the register.

[10:14] Jessica: I've never heard of such a thing.

[10:16] Meg: I mean, creative. Then one day, police officer Francis Sheppard of the 77th went into a numbers spot, like people playing the numbers, in uniform and staged an armed robbery in uniform. This was so brazen, his partner at the time thought it must be an Internal Affairs set up and that he was being tested. So he turned him in. But it wasn't a set up. So then he was called a rat and he was ostracized by the rest of the squad. They ravaged his locker.

[10:56] Jessica: That is really nuts. As you were saying it, the only word that popped into my head was brazen. And then it came out of your mouth. That's the only word for that. And completely insane. Unhinged crazy.

[11:10] Meg: Brian not only bended to peer pressure, he leaned into the corruption. The places with the most cash, which were numbers joints and drug dens, were often fortified. So the officers would borrow sledge hammers, axes, ladders, and ropes from the fire station. They would break the doors down with hammers and axes and scare the crap out of the drug dealers. Brian said, quote, "It was glory. It was not money. It was you finally getting back at all the slaps you took. It was getting back at the scales, back at people you couldn't hit. Sometimes I used to get a feeling, a deep, deep feeling of guilt. But then it would go away. I would go back on patrol and it would go away." And his crimes escalated. Pretty soon, he was dealing drugs and guns as well as stealing cash.

[12:01] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[12:02] Meg: And always in uniform. When he was wearing civilian clothes, he was a law abiding citizen. It just totally flipped.

[12:11] Jessica: I guess if he's in the uniform, then no one's going to attack him. In his mind, that's the protection because no one's going to rat on you. And if you're in uniform, I suppose a civilian isn't going to attack you because the rest of the precinct will kill you.

[12:29] Meg: Yeah. It's just so interesting to me that it's like two sides of the same coin and it's just so easy to flip the coin over. He started to feel desperate and couldn't see any way out. So he convinced Henry Winter, a fellow police officer to shoot him in the hand so he could retire with disability. But Henry couldn't go through with it. Brian became increasingly depressed. Quote "I never stole before I got there. Then it got so I didn't care. Anything could happen, and I wouldn't care. It was like I was dead." And they didn't just go after criminals. Once, Winter and his partner answered a call from a woman whose apartment had just been burglarized. She told the cops that she kept, quote, a lot of money, $200. hidden in a closet. Maybe the burglars missed it. The partners went inside to check, the money was still there. So Winter stepped it in his pocket. Yep. He said, stepping outside. They got it all, lady.

[13:28] Jessica: That's just so depressing.

[13:29] Meg: It's so depressing. And can you imagine living in these neighborhoods? What are you supposed to do? I mean, it's just horrible.

[13:35] Jessica: Well, I think it's just horrible.

[13:37] Meg: There's no one to turn to.

[13:38] Jessica: No. As you're describing Bed-Stuy, we talk about then and now and comparing stuff and to think about how Bed-Stuy is now,those are million dollar houses or more. It's really quite insane.

[13:54] Meg: Gentrification. Eventually, one of the harassed drug dealers went to Internal Affairs to complain.

[14:01] Jessica: A drug dealer went to complain. This is priceless.

[14:05] Meg: And Internal Affairs organized a sting. They nabbed Henry Winter and they were able to convince him to wear a wire.

[14:12] Jessica: Every time you say Henry Winter, I think you're going to say, Henry Winkler.

[14:16] Meg: I'm so glad I haven't so far because that would be confusing. Henry got 13 of the cops in the 77th Precinct on tape confessing to crimes. Brian was one of them. Brian.

[14:27] Jessica: Brian must have been so relieved to have all of this go down. Or maybe not.

[14:33] Meg: Hold on. Sorry. The story continues. Brian called a lawyer and asked about the possibility of pleading insanity resulting from a sort of battle fatigue, quote, "They call it the war on crime, the war on drugs." Interesting, right? He's got making all these associations with Vietnam wasn't that long ago. I mean, he's like, we are in war. Yeah, no, you're going to call it war and I don't and I don't.

[14:59] Jessica: Get to claim trauma.

[15:00] Meg: Right. And then on November 5, 1986, the day he and the other police officers had been ordered to turn themselves in, he drove to the Southampton Motel on County Road 39 and shot himself in the head.

[15:17] Jessica: I guess he wasn't relieved.

[15:19] Meg: No. He was 41 years old and Henry Winter hanged himself in his mother's closet after testifying against his fellow officers.

[15:29] Jessica: It's so bleak. I actually don't have anything to say.

[15:32] Meg: In Brian's suicide note addressed to his brother. He said, "I've always considered myself to be an honest, upstanding person. I was firmly convinced that nobody cared in the ghetto, from the people who lived there to the police and the city. I'm sorry it had to happen this way, but it did. Try your best to take care of mom." In the wake of the scandal, police Commissioner Benjamin Ward announced extensive anticorruption measures, which included transferring one fifth of all patrol officers each year to prevent entrenched personal relationships leading to corruption. Isn't that interesting?

[16:09] Jessica: Very smart.

[16:10] Meg: But yeah, it's like they created their own little bubble, like break the bubble. He also instituted the rule that all drug dealers be questioned about police involvement.

[16:21] Jessica: That is very smart.

[16:24] Meg: Yeah. But the head of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, Philip Caruso, I don't know if you remember him from the previous story. Yes, The Tompkins Square riot. He was furious with all this. This is a quote from him. "This is a dramatic overreaction. He is stigmatizing an entire department. He's casting a pall on the honesty and integrity of every working police officer out there by this move. And if that be the case, then he can no longer lead us, and he should resign."

[16:57] Jessica: That's an odd reaction to cleaning up.

[17:01] Meg: Phil, you know, there's a problem. Okay, so while working on this story, I watched Serpico, which actually takes place in the '70s and is a completely different police corruption story.

[17:13] Jessica: Right, but it's still police corruption.

[17:14] Meg: And I watched a documentary about corruption in the 75th precinct, which is not the 77th. And that happened later in the '80s, but I ended up doing this story about the 77th. All these corruption stories happen within 15 years of each other. It's all the same thing. After Serpico, there was, okay, let's clean everything up. And there are these commissions, and then after the 77th, there are commissions, and then it happened again with the 75th. It's like it's hard to clean up.

[17:47] Jessica: Well. Yes, and I think it's been very well established that when people are given some power, their worst tendencies will come out, and especially when they are empowered as a group.

[18:04] Meg: A lot of this was interesting, the whole idea of brothers in arms, and that's when that coin gets flipped, where you just don't even understand what good versus bad is, that somehow those two things get changed with each other.

[18:18] Jessica: I think it's also very relevant because of everything that we've been dealing with in this country, with examining police departments and race relations. There is that violence. It's an issue that has never gone away since police departments were first created, that you have it's a militia, to your point about, you know, brothers and arms, or it's a war on crime. It is sort of like a city militia. It takes very little to flip people to do whatever they think is in their best interest. And it could be being an undercover head of a drug ring right under the commissioner's nose, or it could just be not just, but it could be taking cash out of someone's apartment.

[19:10] Meg: And it's a slippery slope, and it escalates, apparently, in no time at all, if you are in that environment.

[19:17] Jessica: Well, also, because it is. I mean, I can't imagine what it would be like to know you're not like just think about it this way. How much money would it take for you to take a job where you could be killed any day?

[19:31] Meg: Right. And in this case

[19:34] Jessica: There is no amount of money that makes it reasonable, so there's a resentment and entitlement going in.

[19:40] Meg: They were feeling underrespected, unde armed. The city wasn't supporting them because we were still coming out of the financial crisis. Certainly underpaid. That's why Brian moved to Miami in the first place.

[19:53] Jessica: So it was all his mother's fault. I'm kidding.

[19:58] Meg: She was devastated.

[19:59] Jessica: I'm kidding.

[20:00] Meg: Okay.

[20:01] Jessica: Good God. No, I just meant because he came back because his dad died to look after his mom. Oh, come on. No, it's horrendous.

[20:11] Meg: And to your point, I don't want it to just sort of flip by, but Irish cops policing Black and Dominican neighborhoods?

[20:19] Jessica: Yes. And we see it repeatedly over and over again. Well, that's just really bleak. Happy New Year. Welcome back.

[20:28] Meg: So to answer your question, Jessica yes? The 77th Precinct is in charge of about four and a half square miles, and currently the commanding officer is an African American man Deputy Inspector Tony R. Brown. And the other officers who they are listing right here, all appear to be African American, too. So that's changed. What has also changed? Murder in 2022 versus 1990, down 84%.

[21:18] Jessica: That's amazing.

[21:20] Meg: Rapes down 75%. Robbery down 91%. I mean, that's pretty impressive. That's like a different place entirely.

[21:32] Jessica: Yes, agreed.

[21:33] Meg: That's a little Crown Heights Bed-Stuy update.

[21:37] Jessica: Thank you, Meg. So I think we need to go with something a bit lighter. Well, starts light. It starts light. Don't worry, it ends disastrously.

[21:51] Meg: I am more than happy to hear something light.

[21:54] Jessica: Okay, so I have an engagement question for you. What do the TV show CHiPs, The Hitchhiker, Fantasy Island, The Dukes of Hazard and The Love Boat have in common?

[22:10] Meg: Were they all on ABC?

[22:13] Jessica: Perhaps. I don't think so.

[22:14] Meg: Were they all on the same night?

[22:16] Jessica: No, no The Love Boat, Fantasy Island was NBC. Because they were right before Saturday Night Live.

[22:22] Meg: Are you sure?

[22:22] Jessica: Oh, yes.

[22:23] Meg: Okay.

[22:24] Jessica: If there's anything I'm sure of in life, it's that.

[22:28] Meg: Okay. Were they filmed in La?

[22:30] Jessica: I'm sure they were.

[22:31] Meg: I'm sure they were. CHiPs. Of course.

[22:33] Jessica: Well, isn't that the whole point? Well, California could have been someplace.

[22:38] Meg: Highway patrol. Yeah, but maybe it was like so you stumped me.

[22:43] Jessica: Okay. There's no way you could have gotten this

[22:46] Meg: I had a feeling

[22:48] Jessica: What they all have in common is Audrey Landers.

[22:52] Meg: Oh, I love her.

[22:54] Jessica: Tell me why.

[22:56] Meg: She had a twin, which is fun. Yes, she was pretty and blond.

[23:01] Jessica: What was her twin's name? Do you remember?

[23:03] Meg: Oh, gosh, it's not coming to me right now.

[23:06] Jessica: I just remember that they were the Landers sisters.

[23:09] Meg: They were the Lander sisters. She played my memory is that Audrey Landers always played the bad girl, and her twin played more doe eyed girls.

[23:19] Jessica: Judy. Okay, Judy the sister, but yes, and.

[23:26] Meg: Must have been on The Love Boat like a half dozen times.

[23:29] Jessica: Yes. I, of course, decided when I started doing this research that one or the other was always on. And I have a feeling like there might have been at one point maybe there was like, an extra character that was like Julie McCoy's best buddy who's on the boat.

[23:47] Meg: I would be shocked if she wasn't considered a recurring role, even if she.

[23:52] Jessica: Didn't play the same person every time. Audrey Landers and Milton Burle. So Audrey Landers always played a role that doesn't exist anymore because we don't use words like this. But at the time, she was a bimbo.

[24:09] Meg: Oh, I thought she was like the seductress.

[24:13] Jessica: No, she was a dumb blonde.

[24:15] Meg: That was the maybe comedic, maybe it was the other twin who was more

[24:22] Jessica: Well, I never watched Dallas or Falcons Crest or whatever those shows were, but I do know that Audrey was on Dallas and she played Afton Cooper. I did watch Dallas.

[24:34] Meg: I definitely watched Dallas. It was one of my favorite shows. But I'm not having a strong memory of her on the show, so I'm going to have to go back and look at that.

[24:44] Jessica: Well, Audrey Landers was a type of actress in the '80s and late '70s who was formed in the same mold as Chrissy, Suzanne Somers. Right. From Three's Company and it's interesting to me that's a role that just does not exist anymore. Right. The dumb blonde was such an archetype. And it was like from '30s movies. You know, there's Jean Harlow and what was that? Born Yesterday with she's hilarious. Judy Holliday. But Audrey Landers was also in a movie that I could not believe was made in 1985. I'm backing into my story. I'm coming at this from a weird angle today. But as I started to dig more and more into my actual topic, this other stuff just blew my mind. So what year? Now I already blew it. I can't ask you that question. Can you believe that the movie of A Chorus Line was made in 1985?

[25:48] Meg: You think that's late in the game?

[25:50] Jessica: I thought that it was made in the 90s. Yeah. I couldn't believe that it was made in 1985.

[25:55] Meg: And Audrey Landers was absolutely in that movie.

[26:00] Jessica: Yeah. She was the one who sings Tits and Ass.

[26:02] Meg: Yeah.

[26:03] Jessica: Yeah. So I was like, what are you doing in a prestige film with Michael Douglas? like, what

[26:09] Meg: Was the movie successful artistically?

[26:13] Jessica: I know that it was extremely popular. I don't know what the critical reception was.

[26:19] Meg: What I remember and again, I hope I'm not talking out my butt, but I remember that they weren't satisfied with just having the line of people there talking to the guy in the, they filled it out..

[26:32] Jessica: They had the whole thing, but it was only within the theater. It was the thing with him and Cassie.

[26:39] Meg: Right. Which I'm just like, I don't need that. That's not what A Chorus Line is about.

[26:44] Jessica: No, I agree with you. It was a bit of filler. Yes. And they had Terrence Mann, who originated Let's Talk Broadway. The role of the Rum Tum Tugger in Cats on Broadway now and forever at the Winter Garden Theater. He played the stage manager.

[27:05] Meg: All that backstory, it messed with the cleanness of the line.

[27:10] Jessica: What I found so shocking, and maybe this is like, oh, hi, you're Gen X, guess what? But I was so surprised. I remember seeing that movie as like, as like a sentient being, not an embryo and that it was in 1985. I was like, what the hell? That should have been in 1995 what's going on here.

[27:32] Meg: Good point.

[27:33] Jessica: Thank God. So the reason that I was so stunned by this and how I found this out and I started thinking about that movie, and I was looking up the film and who was involved and like, oh, yeah, so many people in that are dead and not because they died of old age. A lot of people died of AIDS who were in that film because it was a lot of triple threat dancer, singer, actor, Broadway performers. And the reason that I was even looking at it in the first place was because I was thinking about going back to who died in the '80s and I was trying to think, like, who would I really want to talk about? And the person who kept coming to mind was Michael Bennett. Do you know who that is?

[28:17] Meg: He was the original director, of A Chorus Line.

[28:20] Jessica: He was the choreographer. Yes.

[28:23] Meg: And director. No.

[28:25] Jessica: Yeah, he created it.

[28:27] Meg: Okay.

[28:27] Jessica: Yes. He interviewed a huge number of people and actually created the music of Broadway performers and would be performers and interviewed them and almost just took what they said, used that as the script. But, yeah, he was the driving force behind A Chorus Line, which we've talked about in other episodes. So I know that your mom always wants to know which episode is this a call back to?

[28:56] Meg: We'll find the number in a minute.

[28:58] Jessica: Yeah, but we were talking about how seeing, it was the sex thing, wasn't it? That it was like how mortifying it was to be sitting there watching A Chorus Line with my grandparents.

[29:06] Meg: With your grandparents.

[29:07] Jessica: That I thought I was going to drop dead in the theater right then and there. So Michael Bennett was a very influential and important person, and he won, A Chorus Line, won nine Tony Awards and the 1976 Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Facts, which I did not know. And what I also thought was really interesting about him, and it's sort of about that whole the generations that preceded ours, I feel like ours is kind of where this broke. Like, he didn't even finish high school. He got hired for his first show while he was, I think, like a senior and just wound up having this illustrious career. He wound up studying, I think, at ABT American Ballet Theater, and he just took off. Do you remember that movie Camp? So there's Anna Kendrick, who knew who she was. She was a kid. The movie is about all of these kids at a theater camp, and some are coming out, and some are just bitter. And there's even, like, a backstage intrigue with the girl, the mousy girl who wants to take over from the big star. And that's the mousey girl, Anna Kendrick. Anyway, she does a performance of The Ladies Who Lunch, which is originally Elaine Stritch, so we know. And that's what's so hilarious about theater camp is that you have, like, nine year olds playing Tevya and you're like, what is happening here? But I remember seeing that movie and seeing her perform, and I was like I was spellbound. I was like, oh, my God, who is this girl? So. Anna Kendrick. Well done. But in that movie, they show a performance of these kids doing, Turkey Lurkey time from Promises, Promises. Okay. Have you ever seen this?

[31:06] Meg: No, because I haven't seen the movie.

[31:08] Jessica: The choreography is unbelievable, and it's iconic, and these kids are doing it, and it's completely hilarious. And after that came out, it was like one of the most searched and downloaded clips on YouTube. And whatever, he did that Michael Bennett did that. What really surprised me was that do you remember Donna McKechnie? She was the original cast of A Chorus Line. Do you know he married her?

[31:37] Meg: Michael Bennett?

[31:39] Jessica: Yes. The gayest man alive. They were married for a year.

[31:43] Meg: I ddin't know that. Wow.

[31:44] Jessica: And I think that's going to be one of my follow up assignments to myself, to be like, what? Why?

[31:50] Meg: What happened there?

[31:51] Jessica: Yeah. Anyway, he was a very important person, and he changed Broadway and he changed dance. And he was as influential in his time, though his time was cut short, as Bob Fosse, who interestingly, his daughter Nicole was in the movie A Chorus Line.

[32:15] Meg: Really?

[32:16] Jesica: Yes.

[32:17] Meg: Is she the same daughter who does the dance with

[32:20] Jessica: Well, that's not his real daughter. But she also was, no, that's Erzsebet Foldi.

[32:26] Meg: Oh, you're right. Sorry

[32:27] Jessica: Something. But Nicole Fosse was in All That Jazz as well. I just don't know who she played.

[32:32] Meg: How did you know what I was talking about?

[32:34] Jessica: Because I already know.

[32:35] Meg: We were talking about All That Jazz. There's an amazing scene when Bob Fosse's character, his daughter, dances with Anne Reinking, and it's incredible.

[32:48] Jessica: Yes. Anne Reinking, whose legs are just everything about her is just yes, but she wasn't quite human. The legs were so long, so bizarrely, gorgeous.

[33:04] Meg: But also just her style. Everything about her was just aspirational.

[33:08] Jessica: Yes. Agreed entirely. So Michael Bennett, Italian Dad, Jewish Mom. Real last name, his name was Michael Bennett DeFiglia, and he died in Tucson, Arizona, at the age of 44 in 1987. July 2, not long after we graduated from high school together.

[33:33] Meg: Gosh.

[33:34] Jessica: He started off being involved with the production of the film of A Chorus Line and then left due to artistic differences.

[33:43] Meg: I'm not surprised.

[33:44] Jessica: Yes.

[33:45] Meg: And not due to illness. We don't know.

[33:49] Jessica: I have not found evidence of that being the case, but I can't imagine it helped.

[33:53] Meg: I think it's artistic differences. I haven't seen the movie in ages. My memory is that I was like, this isn't what it's supposed to be.

[34:01] Jessica: Yes. But you know what movie was fantastic, I thought?

[34:04] Meg: All That Jazz.

[34:06] Jessica: Well, Dream Girls, which is the film of the musical that Michael Bennett co-directed and choreographed.

[34:15] Meg: Really?

[34:15] Jessica: Yes.

[34:16] Meg: You are full of facts today.

[34:18] Jessica: I am. Full of facts.

[34:21] Meg: Love that show.

[34:22] Jessica: Yes. Let's just raise a glass as we start the new year, thinking about people who we wish were still around. Cause 44. At one point in life, I would have been like, oh, 44. That's ancient. Now. I'm like, oh, my God. He was a baby. He was a baby. Also, what I found out is that he worked on a musical called Coco with Catherine Hepburn. It was about Coco Chanel. I can't think of anyone more miscast than Katherine Hepburn for Coco Chanel. I can't think of anyone more miscast than Katherine Hepburn for Coco Chanel. Unsurprisingly, it was her only stage musical. Okey dokey. And Bennett also did Company and Follies with Stephen Sondheim. So most of those musicals were either made into films or the performances have been recorded and you can find them online. And when you do watch, you'll see that the choreography really shaped dance as we experienced it. From then on, he was really quite remarkable.

[35:33] Meg: I love the bios, Jessica.

[35:35] Jessica: Oh, I love them, too, because everyone knew everybody, and so finding the connections are really fun for me.

[35:43] Meg: You connected Audrey Landers, who, while she was in A Chorus Line, I have a feeling, never stepped foot on soil in New York state. I don't know, I just consider she's just so LA. Right?

[35:56] Jessica: I mean, there's no one who could look more LA yes. Other than Suzanne Somers.

[36:01] Meg: But yeah, to connect her to Michael Bennett is kind of amazing.

[36:06] Jessica: I feel like Audrey Landers and/or her sister Judy, let's just conflate them into one person that they could be like a Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of situation because of the stuff they were in. The Love Boat alone is like the great jumping off point.

[36:23] Meg: Right.

[36:23] Jessica: And I'm sure that on The Love Boat, she was the one who Tattoo would say to Mr. Rourke, who is that lovely lady? She looks so sad. Who is that beautiful lady? She looks so sad. Well, Tattoo, that is Audrey Landers, and she is still trying to get her career off the ground. I see, boss.

[36:48] Meg: Thank you for that. All right, what's our tie in?

[36:51] Jessica: Cops.

[36:52] Meg: CHiPs.

[36:53] Jessica: Do you know what? I'm so lame. I was about to be like, New York. Oh, no. That's that's our that's our whole show. The '80s? The '80s in New York? I don't know. CHiPs, CHiPs. Cops. Cops and CHiPs.

[37:08] Meg: That's that's what we got.

[37:10] Jessica: I'm willing to go with it. That's perfectly reasonable.