[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I'm Jessica, and Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City where we still live.

[00:26] Meg: And where we podcast about New York City in the '80s. I do ripped from the headlines

[00:33] Jessica: and I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg; So we should probably just admit that we are both kind of exhausted.

[00:39] Jessica: I'm too tired to even answer.

[00:42] Meg: But for the next, whatever, 40 minutes, we are going to rally and I'm going to tell you a really cool story that I think you're going to get a kick out of.

[00:50] Jessica: Am I going to weep?

[00:51] Meg: No.

[00:52] Jessica: Am I going to cringe?

[00:54] Meg: I think you will find it fascinating.

[00:56] Jessica: I need fascinating.

[00:58] Meg: Yeah, no, this is a good one.

[00:59] Jessica: As long as it's not like something that's going to put me into a dark, dark depression, I'm totally on board.

[01:05] Meg: I don't think so.

[01:07] Jessica: Well, that is not in any way, shape or form was good to hear.

[01:12] Meg: At first I was very very convinced that this wasn't a trigger warning thing. But now that I think about it.

[01:18] Jessica: Right now, everything's a trigger to me. So it's like you would be like, oh, look, your plant needs a little water. How dare you say that about my plant.

[01:28] Meg: Well, all we can do, let's just try. And I'll be here for you if it goes south.

[01:34] Jessica: See, this is why it's wonderful to do things with your friends. Okay.

[01:49] Meg: My sources today are The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Village Voice, and the wonderful Pete Hamill, who went so into this story and you will know why when I start. Okay, here we go. At 01:50 A.M. on January 10, 1986, police spotted a Ford LTD is that what you call. Ford LTD. It's a kind of a car. Yeah, and it's LTD.

[02:22] Jessica: We are 2 people who don't even have driver's license. I know. Is Ford a car?

[02:29] Meg: Yeah. Okay.

[02:30] Jessica: Anyway, you guys pulled up in a Model T. Okay.

[02:34] Meg: So the police spotted a Ford LTD swerving in traffic and pulled it over on Northern Boulevard near 126th street, which happens to be near Shea Stadium for visual effect.

[02:48] Jessica: Got it.

[02:49] Meg: Got it. Inside the car, they found Donald Manes

[02:54] Jessica: Why does that sound familiar?

[02:56] Meg: And now I'm like, am I pronouncing his name right?

[02:58] Jessica: Spell it.

[02:59] Meg: Manes.

[03:04] Jessica: Manes. Well, that or mains. I don't know.

[03:06] Meg: I know, right?

[03:08] Jessica: Well, I guarantee you someone is going to come back and come back.

[03:11] Meg: I'm going to say it's Manus, okay? Because that's what's been in my head while I've been writing.

[03:16] Jessica: You know what? All I want is to be in your head. So bring it.

[03:20] Meg: So inside the car, they found Donald Manes, who was the Queensboro President and democratic party leader, and he was mumbling incoherently and bleeding from his left wrist and ankle. Left wrist, left ankle. A five inch kitchen knife was found on the floor of his car with his wristwatch, which appeared to have been removed before the slashing.

[03:49] Jessica: Got it.

[03:50] Meg: Okay.

[03:50] Jessica: Not bloody.

[03:52] Meg: His left sock had been rolled down before his ankle had been cut. Now police rushed him to the hospital, and in the dawn hours, everyone tried to figure out what had happened to him. The previous evening, he'd given a speech at a borough hall reception held for the new Israeli general counsel, and friends and colleagues noted that he looked sweaty and disheveled. He said he was headed home to Jamaica, Queens, but he never got there. And 7 hours later he was pulled over. Now rumors began to fly that perhaps he'd had an encounter with a sex worker that turned violent. I mean, apparently he had all kinds of.

[04:36] Jessica: He had a penchant. For the underbelly.

[04:39] Meg: Exactly. Others suggested that, quote, "a group of Palestinians were stalking Jewish politicians in America." That was actually a rumor that was printed in the paper. When Donald was able to speak, he claimed from his hospital bed that when he got in his car after the event Thursday night, two men who he did not recognize were hiding in the seat and they ambushed him and they forced him to drive to Flushing Meadows Corona Park, the only way he'd ever go there. I knew you're going to.

[05:13] Jessica: It's so predictable, but I couldn't help myself. I apologize for my predictability.

[05:19] Meg: Now, he did not give any more details, including where else they made him drive over the course of the 7 hours before he was pulled over.

[05:31] Jessica: Anywhere but Jamaica. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[05:33] Meg: His story was met with a great deal of skepticism, and eventually Donald admitted that he had tried to kill himself.

[05:43] Jessica: This is really ringing more and more bells. I don't know why.

[05:47] Meg: Mayor Ed Koch, his good friend and defender, who had just been sworn into his third term earlier that week, blamed Donald's crash liquid diet for his erratic behavior.

[06:00] Jessica: Ed has clearly not gone on enough diets because, I mean, it was so. What is it? I could imagine I'm so thirsty and dehydrated that I've lost my marbles, but I'm so hungry.

[06:17] Meg: Cause crash liquid diets were actually a thing.

[06:19] Jessica: They were massive.

[06:20] Meg: It feels very.

[06:22] Jessica: You're right. You're absolutely right. Now that I'm remembering about, like, it was so novel to do that, but it was like nonetheless sweeping the nation that it was like the x factor. Okay, I take back my, I don't know, pointing the dumb, dumb finger.

[06:43] Meg: But seriously, Ed, maybe take a minute and see how things play out before you give theories. Anywho, the events of January 10 were really just the beginning of an epic unraveling. Five days later, on January 15, Geoffrey Lindenauer, Deputy Director of the City Parking Violations Bureau, was arrested for extorting bribes from Systematic Recovery Services which was a collection company which tracked down people who hadn't paid their parking tickets, and Citisuource, which was contracted to deliver a handheld computer for traffic agents that could print out tickets. I knew you were going to start glazing over.

[07:29] Jessica: Oh, no, I'm staring at you because I'm like, the minute I hear parking, I'm like, is this a mob story? It sounds very mobbed up.

[07:36] Meg: I just actually want to draw attention to Systematic Recovery Services. That was a name of a company.

[07:42] Jessica: It's not snappy, but it was before. It was before the internet. What if they put a z on the end of it?

[07:49] Meg: Systematic Recovery Services.

[07:51] Jessica: Srs.

[07:54] Meg: Anyway, basically, Lindenauer arranged for these companies to get huge contracts from the city, and in return, they gave him a buttload of cash, which in one case, he collected in the bathroom of a sushi restaurant. As one does. Again, so friggin '80s. Now, we could do a whole episode about the graft and corruption and intricate systems these city officials had been engaging in for years and I read all about it, and, I mean, it would be a whole other episode.

[08:24] Jessica: You just, by the way, gave me an idea for a next episode, and I just have to write it down because it's so fabulous.

[08:33] Meg: Cute nail polish, by the way.

[08:35] Jessica: Thank you. It's the brand lakur. Oh, no, it's Londontown and it's Lakur. And they have all of these gentle on your nails polishes. I highly recommend.

[08:49] Meg: Back to the story. So, yeah, we're not going to get into all of. It's just so complicated, but, like, oh, my God, so much corruption. And Pete Hamill said of this particular group of politicians, quote, "idealism was for saints and amateurs. These people enter politics for one basic reason, to make money."

[09:14] Jessica: When we say these people, does that include Ed Koch?

[09:17] Meg: Well, we'll get into that in a second. But this particular group of politicians, it was just like they actually didn't give a fuck about anyone, really. It was a job to make money.

[09:28] Jessica: It was a graft. Yeah, it was a graft source.

[09:33] Meg: And there are so many of them. Oh, my God, they were everywhere. They were everywhere. They were, like, bumping into each other. There were so many of them.

[09:44] Jessica: I was waiting for something, like, really potent. And you're like, there were so many. It was crowded. It was like a subway car. Please keep that in. Your laugh just made my whole day.

[10:09] Meg: But instead of getting into all that, because you get the picture, I want to spend our time looking into the super weird friendship of Donald Manes and Geoffrey Lindenauer.

[10:20] Jessica: I'm so excited for. You know, you're like, this is not a trigger warning. I'm just like, these are terrible people who did terrible things to each other, and it's like a Christmas story. Wait till you hear.

[10:34] Meg: Just wait till you hear. Okay. So Donald Manes was tailor made for city politics. He was mentored by men who knew the ropes and rose through the ranks smoothly. He was brilliant at negotiation. Quote, this is another Pete Hamill, quote, "Nothing seemed to him worth confrontation. And he would adjust his ideas, his style, even his mood, to suit the company he kept," which I thought was really interesting. So he's a sociopath. Or he just didn't believe in anything.

[11:05] Jessica: No, I'm saying to you with great conviction, after having had a conversation, a lengthy conversation with a good friend yesterday about our encounters with sociopaths through the ages. And so we were stuck in traffic because yesterday in New York, like, on the east coast, but driving into New York, the rain was, it was, violent. There was terrible traffic on the Merritt Parkway just because of the rain. Like, you couldn't move because it was like, will I go off the road? I don't know. So we had the time to look up the definitions of sociopathy, and we're like, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, DSM and what you just described, you know this is a personality disorder where there is no center, and everything you do is to obtain a particular goal and how it affects others. You don't want to hurt them, buut if you do hurt them, that's just an unfortunate byproduct. And, in fact, there are all these business books. There are a couple of business books about why sociopaths are great in business. And, in fact, like, how to be a sociopath in business. Cuckoo. Right?

[12:22] Meg: Yeah.

[12:23] Jessica: So I'm just saying that's why I came at it with so much conviction.

[12:27] Meg: Got it? Okay. Now we're going to talk about Geoffrey Lindenauer. He ran a private psychotherapy clinic called, listen to this. Called the Institute for Emotional Education, and it was at 112 East 19th Street. Its brochure described itself as a, quote, "therapeutic substitute family, in which the therapist must continually reinforce the meaning of healthy love, in practice, this meant lots of sex."

[13:01] Jessica: Another sex cult.

[13:03] Meg: Patients had sex with each other and with the therapists, 35 staff and 125 clients attended daily sessions costing $40 per half hour, aimed at building self esteem, sex education, financial therapy, and psychodrama.

[13:23] Jessica: Oh, it was basically pay to play orgies, I guess. And in the midst of it, we're going to figure out what your personal drama is so we can then exploit it further.

[13:33] Meg: Right, exactly. Lindenauer was, in fact, you will not be surprised by this, not a licensed psychotherapist. But he loved the sex. He bought his two fake doctoral degrees from a diploma mill.

[13:49] Jessica: Did he go to Playland? If he got his diplomas from Playland I am.

[13:57] Meg: Or from the back of a comic.

[13:59] Jessica: Oh, my God totally.

[14:00] Meg: Right?

[14:01] Jessica: Totally. Like the comic book guy from The Simpsons. Like, best diploma ever.

[14:06] Meg: By most accounts, the Institute for Emotional Education was a money making venture rather than a center.

[14:15] Jessica: Oh, my God. Wait a minute. Think of the acronym Institute for Emotional Education. It's IFEE

[14:23] Meg: All right. Now, how did these two men meet, you might wonder.

[14:30] Jessica: I am thinking that it's going to be good.

[14:33] Meg: Manes wife.

[14:34] Jessica: Uh oh.

[14:35] Meg: Marlene, was the Director of Clinical Services at a Queen's psychiatric hospital. She met Lindenauer professionally, but they soon became close. We don't know that, she actually very much distanced herself from when all of this came down. She was like, I met him once. Well, that wasn't really true. So we don't know. We do not know.

[14:59] Jessica: Okay.

[15:00] Meg: We don't want to besmirch Marlene.

[15:01] Jessica: But if I were to wildly speculate for my own entertainment. That's a possibility.

[15:08] Meg: It's a possibility.

[15:08] Jessica: Okay.

[15:09] Meg: The Manes's and the Lindenauer's started to hang out socially as couples. Donald and Geoffrey were both in their late 30s. Both were kind of stocky, and they would go on diets together. And both had fathers who had committed suicide.

[15:26] Jessica: This is really weird.

[15:28] Meg: But the thing they had most in common was a deep desire to make money and a total lack of ethics. A couple years into their friendship, Donald arranged for Geoffrey to be appointed as the Assistant Commissioner of the New York City Addiction Services Agency, even though Geoffrey had zero experience in government. And as we know, two fake degrees.

[15:53] Jessica: Which. Which we hope Manes did not know.

[15:56] Meg: Why do we think he didn't know that?

[15:58] Jessica: That they were fake?

[15:59] Meg: I don't think he gave a shit.

[16:01] Jessica: I'm just wondering. Well, that's a whole different ball of wax, but that. Okay. Mind blown.

[16:07] Meg: That was the gateway appointment, which led to a couple of more. Finally landing him the job of Deputy Director of The Parking Bureau. I mean, how he goes from addiction services to parking.

[16:19] Jessica: Because he says, I want more money.

[16:22] Meg: I want more money.

[16:23] Jessica: Like, get me, parking is the sweet spot.

[16:25] Meg: Well, tell me about it. That's where he decided which private companies would get multimillion dollar contracts to collect unpaid parking tickets. By January 1986, Donald and Geoffrey had raked in, now, what do you think? If you just had to make a wild, crazy guess, how much money do you think that they made in bribes and extortion?

[16:47] Jessica: Over how long a period of time?

[16:50] Meg: Four years.

[16:51] Jessica: Four years in bribes and extortion from companies who want these contracts.

[16:57] Meg: Exactly.

[16:58] Jessica: Let's say 4 million apiece. 12 million apiece.

[17:00] Meg: Honey, no.

[17:01] Jessica: 100 million apiece. What?

[17:03] Meg: $500,000 total.

[17:06] Jessica: Ew. What's wrong with them?

[17:09] Meg: They're bad at it.

[17:10] Jessica: They're terrible. Okay, this is what makes this story take a turn. It takes a turn for the dumb.

[17:18] Meg: I feel bad for them.

[17:20] Jessica: No, I don't feel bad for them. I'm like, if you want to steal, steal well you dumb dumbs.

[17:25] Meg: And they got greedy, and they got sloppy. They'd given a $22.3 million contract to Citisource to provide those handheld computers. But the problem with that was that Citiesource didn't know how to make computers.

[17:42] Jessica: Well who owns? Was it a friend of theirs who owns Citisource?

[17:44] Meg: Actually, I'm so glad you asked that question. There was a friend of theirs who was on the board of Citisource, so yes.

[17:53] Jessica: So the answer is, they were like, we have a friend who needs a contract here. Clearly saw that a mile away.

[18:00] Meg: Citisource was so crazy that they were like, yeah, we got computers. We got computers. No problem with the computers. And they had no friggin idea how to make a computer.

[18:09] Jessica: But that, to me, is, like, every manufacturer that I have ever dealt with, they're like, oh, sure, we can do that. Because they do something that might be mildly or, like, they've bought a computer in the past. Oh, yeah, we can do that. With this total audacity. And then they run off and try to figure out how to do it.

[18:28] Meg: Crazy, though. I mean, I'm sorry.

[18:30] Jessica: I shouldn't say every manufacturer. I have dealt with manufacturers that do that.

[18:34] Meg: But also remember that number. $22.3 million, and all they got was $500,000.

[18:40] Jessica: Oh, my God. They must have been really timid. Can we have some permission to have a bribe fom you?

[18:45] Meg: Okay, so Citisource also tried to pull that same grift in Chicago, and they got caught. See, the Chicago situation was like, you guys don't know how to make computers. And they were, ugh. Yeah, you're right. So they had, they got in trouble in Chicago, so it was only a matter of time before New York was going to be like, well, if they didn't know how to make computers in Chicago, they probably don't know how to make computers in New York. And we just got scammed. Right?

[19:11] Jessica: So, I mean, when you say that, I'm just trying to follow. That's like, whoever Manes and Lindenauer report to would be like, you guys did a terrible deal because they're delivering nothing.

[19:23] Meg: Basically, everything's about to be exposed, okay? Because it was exposed in Chicago. So now they just saw. They realize, like, oh, now we're screwed. It's only a matter of days before we'll be exposed. Okay, so poor Donald and Geoffrey trusted the wrong crooks. And once the Citisource debacle was exposed, people were lining up to get immunity for their part in the dozens of bribery and extortion schemes. Most notably Geoffrey Lindenauer, who threw Donald Manes in front of the bus and then had it back up and ran over him a few more times. He basically was like, oh, do I have dirt on Donald Manes? Let me tell you things that you didn't even ask about.

[20:13] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[20:14] Meg: I mean, really, everything.

[20:16] Jessica: Creep.

[20:17] Meg: This epic betrayal and the fact that Lindenauer knew where all the bodies were buried and was apparently more than willing to sell out his old friend hit Donald Manes very, very hard. On March 13. It's going to take a turn. He met with his lawyer for 5 hours in Manhattan.

[20:35] Jessica: Wait, who did? Lindenauer or Manes?

[20:37] Meg: Donald did. Okay. Then he headed home to Forest Hills. He was agitated and despondent, so much so that his wife Marlene called his psychiatrist, Dr. Wineburg, from their bedroom phone. Donald got on the extension in the kitchen while their 25 year old daughter Lauren tried to keep him calm. He was freaking her out, though. He kept opening and closing the knife drawer. Before she could stop him, Donald grabbed a 14 inch Ekco Flint Knife with an 8 and 3/4 inch blade and thrust it into his chest.

[21:16] Jessica: What?

[21:18] Meg: Lauren screamed. Marlene rushed into the kitchen, pulled the knife from Donald's chest, and hurled it across the room. And I have heard, like, if you do get stabbed, leave it in there.

[21:31] Jessica: This is why I'm screaming? Because now. Okay.

[21:35] Meg: Dr. Wineburg dropped his phone.

[21:37] Jessica: Oh, my God. Dr. Wineburg's still on the line.

[21:42] Meg: Still on the line. And he ran the five blocks to the Manes's house. Why are we laughing?

[21:49] Jessica: But it's like a cartoon. This is so bad. I'm imagining like, a street sign, like, of someone running, just like the silhouette.

[21:56] Meg: But also I'm like, the guy was in crisis and you only live five blocks away. Why were you on the phone? Why didn't you make a friggin house call?

[22:02] Jessica: You know why? Because. Boundaries, okay?

[22:09] Meg: Despite everyone's best efforts, Donald Manes died of his wounds at Booth Memorial Hospital.

[22:15] Jessica: Wait, so this was after he was found in the car?

[22:19] Meg: Yeah. This is two months later.

[22:21] Jessica: Oh, okay, okay. I thought that somehow he had stabbed himself in the chest and then sliced his wrists and no one had noticed the chest wound or.

[22:29] Meg: No, I told the story sequentially.

[22:31] Jessica: Okay.

[22:32] Meg: Basically, he tried to kill himself in the car. And over the next two months all this stuff got exposed. All hell broke loose. And then he succeeded at killing himself. That same day that Donald Manes died finally. Ed Koch. Finally, he tried a couple.

[22:51] Jessica: I know. Well, if you're going to do something, do it right Donald.

[22:54] Meg: We are very dark today.

[22:57] Jessica: Yes, we are, and that's unc.

[22:59] Meg: But listen, that very same day that Donald Manes died, Ed Koch announced a new five person committee to screen potential appointees to powerful positions. Novel idea, Ed. Ostensibly ending the corruption that he had inherited from Wagner, Lindsay and Beame. This had been going on for generations.

[23:21] Jessica: I mean, this had been going on since I mean. Yes. I've invoked the words Tammany Hall before.

[23:26] Meg: But it undeniably did thrive on his watch.

[23:31] Jessica: Yes, it did.

[23:33] Meg: So that's my story. There is some question. Did he kill himself because he was depressed? And remember, his dad killed himself, so maybe it just ran in the family. I don't know. You know what mean, like, is it ever one thing? It's ever one thing, but there's another part of the story.

[23:50] Jessica: God, you're like Agatha Christie. You leave out important facts until the end.

[23:55] Meg: But actually you said it from the get go. Okay, as soon as you heard parking, what did you say?

[23:59] Jessica: Mob.

[24:01] Meg: Yeah. So there's a theory that actually the mob was like, if you don't kill yourself because you know our stuff, so. We'll kill you, if you don't kill yourself. We'll kill your family. Oh, we'll kill your family unless you kill yourself. So there's a theory that he did that way to protect his daughter and wife. But who stabs themselves in the heart?

[24:25] Jessica: Yeah. Well, that's very symbolic, isn't it? Symbolic. By the way, with all of these shenanigans on Manes's part, I retract any statements about sociopathy. And I'm going to just shine that light on Lindenauer. Yes. I was like Lieberstein, Lowenthal, Lindenauer.

[24:45] Meg: Lindenauer. And there were, in the wake of his suicide, dozens of resignations. People were like, I quit, I quit, I quit, I quit, I quit. You don't have to worry about me. You don't have to investigate me because I'm just going to move to Florida, if that's cool. Basically, Ed Koch's entire administration just went like two weeks notice.

[25:05] Jessica: Oh my God. Okay, so now my visual is creaky pirate ship rats on all of the ropes, running.

[25:18] Meg: And guess who still walks amongst us?

[25:21] Jessica: Lindenauer.

[25:24] Meg: But he's in his 90s, so I don't know if he's walking very quickly.

[25:29] Jessica: He shuffles amongst us. That could be another section that we He's still in Queens. What? Yes, but for the really old ones, can we do a they shuffle amongst us section? So they sprint among us. They walk among us, and they shuffle among us. I always thought I was a little on the cynical side, but I'll tell you, these stories and doing this podcast have tipped me over into nothing matters, everyone's dirt. Yeah, well, at least Geoffrey Lindenauer is.

[26:03] Meg: It was very interesting to me to read the Pete Hamill article that was basically like, some people get into politics because they really want to help people and they think they can make a difference and they can improve their communities. And some people really don't give a fuck.

[26:20] Jessica: Funny you should bring this up, because my dear darling friend Kelly, who listens to the podcast with her dear darling daughters, Flannery and Lily. Hi, guys. She posted something on the Facebook, and I just want to share this because it's apropos and it's an opportunity for people to maybe do the right thing. So she says, or rather, she has posted. "Did you know that 70% of local political races in the US go unopposed?" She says, "I was shocked when I heard that. If you want to stop complaining and start making a difference, get involved with local politics, see what positions are available near you." And there is wherecanirun.org, Run For Something action fund. So if you hate this story of corruption and want to do something and want to make a difference, there you go. Go run unopposed or oppose a complacent fat cat.

[27:32] Meg: PSA.

[27:33] Jessica: It's rare, but there it is. So I wanted to share something with you. Okay. Because we were talking about things being mobilicious. The reason I came up with that is that I worked. I'm doing a shameless plug for someone. But it's actually, like so on point. So I worked on a book with a lovely, lovely woman. And the book is called I Can't Believe I'm Not Dead: Escaping Abuse, a Cult, Attempted Murder and Other Insanities..A Story That Cannot Be True, But Is.

[28:16] Meg: Ooh, sounds fun.

[28:17] Jessica: It's awesome. I'm plugging it shamelessly. Her name is Kendra Petty, she rocks. Now with that said, she was in the parking business and she taught me a lot of things and gave me a lot of insight into how that used to work versus how it works now. And all I have to say is, if anyone liked your segment today, and they all do, buy the book because your hair will absolutely stand on end and Meg, if ever a book was written for you, that's it.

[28:54] Meg: That's wild. And is it all New York City stuff? No, it's across the country.

[28:59] Jessica: Across the country and uh

[29:03] Meg: Parking. I mean, so weird.

[29:05] Jessica: You know, I'll start with this. It used to be an all cash business.

[29:10] Meg: Crazy.

[29:12] Jessica: Go from there, right? Totally. It's definitely whack a doodle do. It's a really good book. I was involved, you know Kendra is, Kendra's just wonderful.

[29:25] Meg: I'll post about it, for sure.

[29:26] Jessica: Yes. My segment today is sort of you know, unscrew the top of my head and a few things will fall out and maybe they'll make sense and maybe they won't. I don't know. When I woke up this morning and I reached for my phone, as we do, which is probably why I need a lot of therapy already today and I'm deeply unwell. There is an article in The New York Times today about how the new crop of CEOs coming into their prime right now the average age is 54. And so it is Gen X. And so the topic was the article is basically Gen X is in charge and the photo that goes with it is a still from Office Space. I was expecting an article that was kind of like, what are the ins and outs and the ethos of Gen X, as we talk about on this podcast frequently. And they sort of touched on it in the beginning, like, we're the generation of latchkey kids and we're the ones who you know are independent thinkers and independent in the way we function because we had to be. I think they quoted Patton Oswalt that was like, we're the generation of meh. Like, it's no big deal. Whatever. Okay. I'm the President. Fine, whatever. We don't have to talk about it. It's fine. And I was hoping for more of that. Like, oh, how does that really affect being a leader when you're like, it's all going to die anyway, whatever. But in fact, it wound up being an article about people who are younger than us after the pandemic, were really excited to be in person with other workers. And that Gen X is like, well, we like a hybrid because we're taking care of aging parents, but we still see the value of being with other people, but we like to do things independently. And I was like, what a blazing snore this is. What a terrible, stupid filler of an article and they had so much that they could do with it, but it did do something of value. I was thinking about the CEOs of the past and what was the ethos, what drove people and how did they treat their employees? Because part of what this article did say was that Gen X is actually much kinder to their employees and they're much more aware of the fact that people are individuals and so trying to shove them into a cookie cutter is no good, but you still have to find a way to make them function on the job. But they see the world as a world of latchkey kids You know and I've told stories about Dick Snyder, who recently died, who was the president or the CEO of Simon & Schuster, who had his own private elevator that no one else was allowed to get on with a velvet rope. Call back. So the first thing, for some reason that popped into my head was our old friends on Wall Street, you know who were the masters of industry or finance, at least at the time. And I don't know why because he's not someone I normally think of. But I went straight to Ivan Boesky, and I was like, and we've talked about Ivan Boesky.

[32:37] Meg: Yeah, I did an episode on Ivan.

[32:39] Jessica: But I was thinking about Ivan Boesky, and just like, how in fact, he was, I did not know this, I found this out, he was the model for the Gordon Gekko character.

[32:49] Meg: Yeah, he said, greed is good at graduation ceremony.

[32:58] Jessica: Because he was subtle. I was just thinking about CEOs and you know and men in power, and then there's Ivan and what a total creepozoid he was. In fact, so I was reading up about him, and I think it was Business Insider that this was in. But when he married his wife, who had money, hers is a Jewish family that had a lot of money. His did not. And he was clearly a gold digger. His father in law called him Ivan the bum. And so interestingly, his whole shtick was that he spent and spent and spent like a complete animal. But because he was ostentatious show of wealth, but he also worked like he was in a sweatshop and that he would have a phone on each ear, you know and screaming and all of that stuff, and that he slept 3 hours a night. That was it. Which also explains the cocaine of the period, because if people are trying to keep up with Ivan Boesky and his insider trading, guess what? You all need to be on blow. But in my research about Ivan Boesky, I found myself back in my favorite territory, food. And there's a very famous story about him. And it came up in a video on CNBC. I think it's called, like, Empires of New York or something like that. So Ivan Boesky very famously ordered everything on the menu at one of the most high priced, prestigious blah blah restaurants in the city so that he could take a bite of everything and then decide what the people at his table were going to have. Like, creepy, right?

[34:41] Meg: Very.

[34:41] Jessica: And then, of course, I was like, well, what restaurant was this? And then I fell into my absolute, this is just the best and it's high praise for Bret Easton Ellis. Another callback because the restaurant was The Quilted Giraffe. So The Quilted Giraffe was the brainchild of non chefs, non restauranteurs, a lawyer and I forgot, oh she had shops, like clothing shops, and they had gone to a restaurant called The Quilted Bear in Arizona, and they were, like, smitten and were like, we can do this, so they came up with The Quilted Giraffe because they were super inventive, but what they did.

[35:21] Meg: I don't like these people.

[35:24] Jessica: No, they're the worst.

[35:24] Meg: Okay.

[35:25] Jessica: And so I found this article in Town & Country. Again, what could be more '80s? Caviar and Cocaine is the title of this article written by Jay Cheshes. It's a very oddly spelled name. Anyway, but it was the restaurant that was featured in American Psycho when he says to Jean, who I believe is the girl played by Reese Witherspoon in the movie, pick the most, he gives her a Zagat. Again, how '80s. For people who don't know what a Zagat is, Yelp and every other rating service online began with Zagat in New York City, some people say Zagaat.

[36:02] Meg: I think it's supposed to be Zagat.

[36:03] Jessica: Zagat.

[36:05] Meg: Zagat. We used to give everybody a Zagat in their Christmas stocking.

[36:11] Jessica: Yeah. And they would come in, like, sometimes if you were really super fancy, you could get them bound in leather. But it was every single restaurant in New York City listed with a little review, a blurb from, it wasn't a reviewer like a Mimi Sheraton, it was reviews that were sent in by patrons and then stars rating and how much it cost. So he gives her in this book, and in the movie, Zagat, it just says, pick the most expensive restaurant, and she picks The Quilted Giraffe. And that place is, so that's where Ivan Boesky did this thing where theatrics like that were actually encouraged. And the owner of this crazy place was Susan and Barry, who had The Quilted Giraffe, but Barry was a genius because, and he was a lawyer. He figured out early on, like, no one in his kitchen was a trained chef. And they were hiring kids right out of culinary school or whatever, and they only started taking off when he took over the kitchen for a variety of reasons that I will not bore you with. And so then he started hiring his kitchen staff and his chefs as enthusiastic amateurs who would learn on the job.

[37:37] Meg: This is insane.

[37:37] Jessica: Yeah, it's totally crazy. And they would go on these extravagant eating tours in Europe, primarily in France, basically find food that they thought was pretty amazing, and then make it happen at their restaurant. But what he realized was, people in this environment in the '80s, they want to pay more for what they're eating. So he would put something on the menu for $5, and the next week, it was ten, and the week after that, it was $15, and the week after that, and it would go up to $50. And because it was at that point, like, it was how he was creating the buzz around the restaurant, around his restaurant, knowing that these people were trying to find ways to look like they had everything and they're rolling on expense accounts or whatever, that it's sort of like, on one hand, I admire him because he was like, you want to spend it? I'll take it. That's fine. And they actually did deliver some decent food. Apparently, it was Barry who first invented beggars' purses, which you see now every place. It's like a little crepe that has something in it and tied with a chive. Yeah, that's Barry.

[38:50] Meg: All right, Barry.

[38:51] Jessica: Yeah. And their prices were extremely high, but they were very generous with high end ingredients. But of course you know, would never reach that level. His goal was to make a restaurant where you would take a date, where you would propose, and where you would close a big Wall Street deal.

[39:09] Meg: I want to go.

[39:10] Jessica: It's long gone.

[39:11] Meg: That's a shame.

[39:12] Jessica: It started in 1979.

[39:14] Meg: You first started talking about it, and I was like, this sounds like a horrible place, and now I'm sold. Bring it back Jessica.

[39:20] Jessica: I'm so sorry. And I think it closed. It either closed in '86 or '89, I can't recall. It also ties in with Mimi Sheraton because they were bringing French Nouvelle cuisine to New York, partly because it was cost effective to serve tiny little pieces of food.

[39:38] Meg: So she hated the, what is it again? The Quilted.

[39:41] Jessica: The Quilted Giraffe.

[39:42] Meg: She must have, right?

[39:43] Jessica: I don't know, but we have to research this.

[39:46] Meg: Yeah.

[39:46] Jessica: Oh, it closed on New Year's Eve, 1992. Okay, so that is the '80's right there. In fact, it says in this article from Town & Country. The waiters came together for one last time on the night that it closed to synchronize the restaurant's famously ostentatious champagne pour just before midnight, the '80s were done. Black Friday, October 19, 1987, had been the beginning of the end. It's hard to fathom in today's economic climate when a 500 point swing in the DOW is a daily occurrence. But Black Monday was the first crash since the Great Depression, the DOW losing 22.6% of its value by the closing bell. We did incredible business that night, said Barry. It was as if the Wall Street guys all knew it would be the last chance they'd have to use their corporate cards. Wow. The Gulf War didn't help. Three years later, in the first couple of weeks, Susan Wine, Barry's wife, also owner of The Quilted Giraffe, said nobody went to dinner anywhere in New York. And new tax laws targeting business deductions for dinner and lunch helped to end the party. Saudi arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi arrived. Ah, we talked about him too. I know. He arrived early for dinner, he came up with an entourage, as he always did, a group of eight at table seven up front near the door. It was also Woody Allen's favorite perch. Upstairs, in a quiet corner, Rupert Murdoch gave Ed Koch a ribbing, the irascible mayor into his third term, hello, cowed by a tabloid king still on his way up. Back on the ground floor, a few sour faced Johnsons quibbled conspicuously over their band aid fortune as Basia the chambermaid heiress who'd taken it all, sat imperious at the head of the table. Who is she?

[41:37] Meg: We need to find out who she is. That's a story.

[41:40] Jessica: Back near the kitchen, Italian playboy Gianni Agnelli squired a woman so breathtaking even the gay maitre d went weak at the knees. Khashoggi oblivious, tucked into his rack of lamb with chinese mustard, sipped his '79 Petrus, his "61 Krug. At the end of the meal, he made his way to the host stand, borrowed the phone, dialed the pilot on his private jet, quote, "keep the engines running," he growled. The Iran-Contra scandal broke wide open later that night.

[42:11] Meg: Oh, my God.

[42:12] Jessica: Khashoggi, one of the principal architects and arguably the richest man in the world, was long gone when it did.

[42:20] Meg: Oh, my God.

[42:21] Jessica: So there's so much more to say about this place. But I know that this is like the moment when I usually go like sort of bananas into a spiral. So I'm going to stop there. But I really encourage people to look into The Quilted Giraffe and.

[42:37] Meg: No, I will post about it.

[42:38] Jessica: Susan Wine and Barry.

[42:40] Meg: I wonder, what are they up to now? Susan and Barry Wine.

[42:44] Jessica: Well, Susan remarried a few years back, but The Quilted Giraffe is still with her in the commemorative plates she keeps from the restaurant, the holiday cards she blew up into posters, and the stories that still feel fresh as last week. Jacqueline Onassis coming in for lunch in her blue Chanel suit, accompanied by Jayne Wrightsman. Andy Warhol snapping pictures of everything. Henry Kissinger getting, as Susan recalls, bombed. I can still tell you what night somebody sat at table seven or table five. And the food, let's be honest, the food was good. Very good. It wasn't the best and they didn't have to be. That's sort of like what's so amazing about them as entrepreneurs is that they positioned it as being the best and the most experimental because of these food trips they would to. But the cult of personality couldn't live with the chef like it did with Wolfgang Puck and people like that. They knew that they had to be the cult of personality as the people throwing the party. Got it. They threw a kind of party.

[43:43] Meg: That's kind of like Elaine's and Mortimer's, that story that you did. Yes, it is where it was about the owners, the hostess or the host rather than the food.

[43:55] Jessica: Exactly. And there was another bit about how Barry really didn't love Warren Beatty and loved to play pranks on him. Or maybe he did love him and played pranks, but that's always sort of a double edged sword. And he had noticed once that he took his loafers off during the meal. Ew.

[44:11] Meg: Right.

[44:12] Jessica: So he brought a really special dessert for them under a dome. And when he pulled off the dome, it was Warren's loafers.

[44:18] Meg: Oh, my God.

[44:20] Jessica: Or he would get, because he went to Japan frequently, he would get fake food, like plastic food and serve it to Warren Beatty. So everyone wanted to be in on the joke. That was another thing that he was very smart about, that it was like, oh, this is a place where we play pranks on each other. We're all so fun and cooky.

[44:42] Meg: Like a clubhouse.

[44:43] Jessica: Yes, exactly. So The Quilted Giraffe, a place that could never have existed in any other decade. And it all boils down to expense accounts. And I think that the way, again, to go back to American Psycho. Where else could he have chosen? Now that I know this, I'm just like, oh, Bret, Bret, well played.

[45:18] Meg: I think our tie in is Ed Koch, third term.

[45:21] Jessica: Yes, I think Ed Koch. Yeah. And also, Ed, what are you doing at The Quilted Giraffe? Come on. Are you spending taxpayers dollars?

[45:27] Meg: And Ed, I mean, I think we have to probably look a little deeper into Ed.

[45:36] Jessica: You know what. I'm staying out of politics. I have been chided enough about whether or not I've gotten New York City politics right. And I just want to remind everyone listening, we were children then. So part of the perspective that is brought to this as a reminder is that we are looking at what we thought then and how we process what we learn now. This is a look backwards. Yes, we were doing our best. We were children. But with that said, I hand all political insanity over to you, and I'm going to stick with people who did drugs and ate too much.

[46:10] Meg: Okay, that sounds like.

[46:11] Jessica: And watched things.

[46:12] Meg: I mean, I'm into getting into the politics stuff here and there, but it's also fun to talk about food. So fun to talk about food, because, yeah, the politics do get itchy. People are very opinionated.

[46:26] Jessica: Well, and I think that with politics being what they are in both. I mean, the city right now, for those of you who are not New Yorkers, Eric Adams is a problem.

[46:35] Meg: Oh, my God.

[46:36] Jessica: He is a very bad mayor. Yeah, that's not me telling tales out of school. Didn't. I have to admit I didn't read the whole article, but apparently he's been carrying around a photo in his wallet about a fallen police officer who he's really upset about. It turns out, like, this person didn't exist. It was a mock up from his PR department.

[47:01] Meg: Oh, God, Eric. And then the whole rat issue. What's the rat czar? Anyway, let's not get into Eric.

[47:07] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[47:08] Meg: He's a mess. He's a mess.

[47:10] Jessica: And he's not even a hot mess. He's just a gross, sticky, dumb, dumb mess. Stay out of politics. Well, no, because this is not controversial. This is, like, it's not controversial. But I think that because of the current political climate on both a local and national and international stage at the moment, that bringing up anything that is questionable in the political arena is probably.

[47:38] Meg: A trigger for people.

[47:41] Jessica: So apologies I guess. I don't apologize for anything. I'm just stepping back.