[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80’s, I am Meg.

Jessica: And I am Jessica.

[00:21] Jessica: And Meg and I have been friends since 1982! We went to middle school and high school together here, in New York City,

[00:27] Jessica: -where we still live!

Meg: and where we were podcasting about New York City in the 80’s. I do rip from the headlines.

[00:34] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:36] Meg: Jessica, today, I … this story has so many rabbit holes that I like, almost twisted an ankle. It was ridiculous.

[00:44] Jessica: I'm very excited. Weirdly, I have a lot of rabbit holes today, too.

[00:48] Meg: My gosh. It's like, the deeper we get into this topic, the deeper we get into this topic.

[00:55] Jessica: It's like we find the entire - the whole topic of New York City in the 80s is like some weird, connected subterranean catacomb where you can't get out [Meg whispering: Geeeet ouuuuut] and everything is connected. Meg: All right, well, we have to get started. Jessica: All right, well, then, hit me. Hit me. Come on.

[01:21] Meg: My topic today - deep breath - was suggested by one of our dear listeners: Ben.

[01:30] Jessica: Ben. Meg: Dear Ben. Jennifer: Yay, Ben.

[01:33] Meg: And he actually gave me a few ideas, which helped organize my thoughts on it. And my engagement question for you is - I hope this isn't offensive to anyone - but did you ever use the term euro?

[01:49] Jessica: Like, duh. Meg: Okay.

[01:51] Meg: I don't think people use it anymore!

[01:53] Jessica: No. Well, no, they do. I think they do. I mean, it became inextricably linked with the word trash. Meg: Ohh!. Jennifer: So euro trash, I came to the thing, right? I think that's, like, the offensive. But to say that something's eur - well, there is also the currency. There's the euro, which is not what we're talking about. No. I think that in the 80s, remember, all of the sunglasses, like the things that were French and Italian were like very… very hip and like that was the sleek look. [Meg: Yeah]. Jessica: I remember our friend Nick - sorry, Nick, I'm going to call you out on this particular fashion choice - he had a pair of sunglasses that were black, almost Ray-Ban®-ish, but they didn’t have… they had less of a bridge, right?

[02:42] Jessica: They were not quite straight on the top, but almost. And then had a thin gold strip across the top. [Meg: Mmm oh yes, I can see it, I can see it.] You know which ones I'm talking about? That was the.. like quintessentially euro to me.

[02:54] Meg: Okay, well, my father - and this is a short little tangent - when he was first divorced from my mother in the late 80s, he started spending time with Ninotchka, who lived at the Sherry Netherland and she spent part of her time in Palm Beach, part of her time in Southampton, and we would hang out sometimes at the huge mansions of her Euro friends. And I remember -

[03:27] Jessica: Well, I take it from her name that she was Euro [Meg: Yeah] as well. Okay. Meg: Yeah yeah yeah.

[03:31] Meg: And I remember at one of these places, there was an ashtray - this is very disturbing, actually - that was an elephant's foot.

[03:42] Jessica: Oh, yeah… yeah that was the thing. That's actually a very Victorian design. Although an elephant's foot, like an actual elephant's foot, [Meg: An actual. Elephant’s. Foot.] was usually used as a um… as an umbrella stand or for walking sticks, because it's a rather large receptacle. That's a very big ashtray.

[04:04] Meg: Someone cut its foot off!

[04:05] Jessica: No, I understand that. I'm moving past that to, like, I could understand that as a vessel, but as an ashtray? That's a lot of smoking to fill up the elephant's foot. That's weird.

[04:18] Meg: Also - I'll just tell you - in person, it was very disturbing.

[04:21] Jessica: Well, I'm sure it was horrifying. Absolutely. I mean you know, the Victorians were up to all kinds of no good with animals. So, yes, the idea that they were chopping off feet and making them into, you know, like a planter is not unusual.

[04:37] Meg: And um, she, Ninotchka who - actually an incredibly lovely person, I don't want to besmirch her in any way - she used to love to dance at Régines.

[04:49] Jessica: It brings to mind a very particular kind of wardrobe. Like, remember those 70s silky disco dresses? [Meg: I know exactly what you’re talking about!] And that was - and the ultimate disco wrap dress and lots of very shiny lipstick. I don't mean - or makeup - I don't even mean. Just, it wasn't about the glitter. It was that everything looked like it had been dipped in Vaseline. Like, it was just shiny.

[05:17] Meg: Well, our story for today, my sources, a bunch of articles that Dominic Dunne wrote for Vanity Fair.

[05:25] Jessica: Oh, it must be all about Régines.

[05:29] Meg: Page Six and the New York Times. On a Sunday in May 1985, Helmut Newton, the famed photographer, returned from Monte Carlo to photograph Claus von Bülow and Andrea Reynolds at the 14 room apartment at 960 5th Avenue at 77th Street. Claus, the 59 year old Danish man about town, was wearing tight jeans and a black leather jacket and posed in front of a portrait of himself painted in Paris when he was 21. His lady friend, the 48 year old Mrs. Reynolds - incidentally Hungarian - wore a white satin neglige and was prepared to change into a black leather outfit to match Claus's. I will post that photo. What made the photo shoot particularly distasteful was that Claus von Bülow was currently being tried for twice attempting to murder his wife, Sunny von Bülow, the owner of the lavish apartment that they were in, who lay in an irreversible coma at New York Presbyterian Hospital a mere half hour cab ride away. This was Claus's second trial. He was found guilty the first time, but then won an appeal. And now he had to do the whole thing all over again. Two alleged murder attempts resulting in two comas and two trials.

[07:04] Jessica: Oh, Sunny.

[07:06] Meg: Both of his trials were held in Rhode Island. The first one in Newport, where Sunny had succumbed, and the second trial in Providence. But out on bail, Claus and Andrea stayed on the 14th floor of the Providence Biltmore during the week. And on Fridays, a station wagon zipped them back to New York City, where they were regulars at Mortimer's and were fetted by the members of society who either believed in his innocence or just didn't care.

[07:36] Jessica: Wait. Timeout. A station wagon?

[07:39] Meg: Interesting. Yeah, it was a station wagon.

[07:42] Jessica: That's very weird for the whole profile here.

[07:45] Meg: Guess where I stay every time I go visit Alice?

[07:47] Jessica: I'm sure it's in that hotel.

[07:49] Meg: It is in that hotel, which I love. [Jessica: Okay…] Okay, are you mocking me?

[07:54] Jessica: Not at all! Not at all.

[07:55] Meg: We should back up a bit. Martha Sharp (Sunny von Bülow) was born into enormous wealth thanks to her utilities magnate father, George Crawford. Her mother was Annie Laurie Warmack Crawford Aitken of the Annie Laurie Aitken British galleries at the Met, where you can see the most gorgeous teapots and silver and rugs. Sunny went to Chapin.

[08:21] Jessica: Did she?! Now I’m suddenly - I'm bolt upright. Reeaaally? Hmm.

[08:27] Meg: And then was whisked off to Europe, where she met her first husband, the impoverished Prince Alfie von Auersperg. He was her tennis instructor. They had two children, Alexander and Annie Lori, named after Sunny's mother, who was called Ala. But Alfie was a philanderer, and they divorced in 1965, when the children were seven and six. When Sunny met Claus, she was worth $75 million and expected to inherit much, much more. Claus Borberg was the son of an accused Nazi sympathizer. So early on, he changed his last name to his maternal grandfather's name, Bülow, and then added the “von” for extra flair. He swept Sunny off her feet. He was charming and sociable, while Sunny was quiet and reserved. When they married in 1966 at the Brick Church on Park.

[09:34] Jessica: We love the brick church where we graduated.

[09:37] Meg: Yes! He was working for John Paul Getty as an aide, often traveling and taking meetings that the notoriously recluse Getty was loathe to take.

[09:49] Jessica: There should be like a whole episode that we just do on John Paul Getty. We have to find some New York - [Meg: Connection to New York.] connection

[09:58] Meg: Sunny and Claus moved back to the States. Claus quit his job, and they split their time between Newport and Fifth Avenue. Sunny's estate in Newport Clarendon Court is a Georgian mansion on Bellevue Avenue, set on ten acres overlooking the sea. Next door, to the Asters, Doris Duke, and the Vanderbilts. Claus and Sunny had a daughter, Cosima, in 1967. And while Claus loved to attend all the society functions in Newport and New York and Europe, Sunny was a homebody who would rather arrange flowers and watch movies than hobnob. At Christmas time, 1979, the family was gathered at Clarendon Court to celebrate. On Christmas evening Sunny drank a couple glasses of eggnog after dinner, and it seemed to hit her hard. Alex, her son, helped his mother upstairs, assuming the stress of the season had gotten to her. But the next day, she just didn't get up. Her devoted personal maid, Maria Schrallhammer, kept checking on her, but Sunny appeared to still be asleep. Quote: “I heard Mrs. von Bülow moaning in the bedroom. I knocked on the door and just walked in. Her right arm was hanging off the bed. Her arm was limp. I touched her and she was ice cold. I spoke to her in a loud voice”. But Claus - who was sitting up in bed next to Sunny, reading - [Jessica: what?!] shooed Maria away. Quote: “He said she was sleeping”. Finally, after 8 hours, Claus called the doctor, and when the paramedics came, they said she was in a coma. She was whisked off to the hospital, where miraculously, she recovered. They said she was hypoglycemic and that she should refrain from eating sweets and drinking alcohol. But Maria was suspicious of Claus because of his odd behavior. And when she went through his little black bag…

[12:09] Jessica: He had a little black bag?

[12:10] Meg: He had a little black bag. She found a vial of insulin.

[12:18] Jessica: Oh, Claussie.

[12:20] Meg: But nobody was diabetic. She also found Valium and Seconal.

[12:27] Jessica: Well, so Sunny was going to get really relaxed. It's really Claus's big idea.

[12:34] Meg: I mean, apparently it was in vogue to give like vitamin B shots to themselves. I mean, there's a reason why…

[12:42] Jessica: You know, that they weren't really vitamin B shots.

[12:46] Meg: Speed or something?

[12:47] Jessica: They were all on all kinds, uppers and downers

[12:50] Meg: Right, so while it sounds really nefarious that he had a little black bag -

[12:55] Jessica: Just because it was de rigueur does not mean that it wasn't also nefarious.

[12:59] Meg: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Exactly.

[13:02] Jessica: And also, let's be honest, that's called gear when you're a junkie, right? So he had his gear. And when you have gear, you try not to stick it in other people.

[13:15] Meg: Well, see, guess who didn't have a little black bag?

[13:19] Jessica: Sunny.

[13:20] Meg: Right?

[13:20] Jessica: Because Sunny was probably not interested in being a pincushion.

[13:23] Meg: Sunny did not have gear. Now, people did say, including Truman Capote, that he'd seen her shoot up and that she told him how to shoot up and all this kind of stuff.

[13:33] Jessica: Truman Capote is, like, the least reliable - was - the least reliable source on the planet.

[13:39] Meg: But the point is, she didn't have gear. If she had had gear, it would have shown up. Anyway. Back to Maria. Maria is suspicious. She speaks to Alex and Ala, who proceeded to keep a close eye on Claus. But no one called the police.

[13:56] Jessica: Was Cosima.

[13:58] Meg: She's 13.

[13:59] Jessica: Oh, that's right. Just a child.

[14:02] Meg: Very young. And before they knew it, it was Christmas time again! So a whole year passes. And as the family prepared -

[14:09] Jessica: Was Sunny conscious?

[14:10] Meg: Yes, because she recovered.

[14:12] Jessica: Okay.

[14:12] Meg: And then it was back to normal! As the family prepared to go to Clarendon Court - as was their tradition - Claus told Maria she didn't need to come. I'm sorry, but when it's Christmas time or Thanksgiving, [Jessica: you want all of your staff] you need the help. Yes, like, bring on help. Whatever help I can get, I need some help.

[14:32] Jessica: I'm assuming that Maria had another one of her “Claus does not seems to be very trustworthy.”

[14:40] Meg: But what can she do?

[14:42] Jessica: Nothing.

[14:42] Meg: No. In the days before Christmas, Sunny wrapped presents and went to see “9 to 5” with Alex. [Jessica: Awwwww.] Meg: I know. And then, on the morning of December 21, 1980 - after returning from walking the dogs - Claus discovered Sunny face down on her bathroom floor with her nightgown bunched up around her waist. He called in Alex to the bathroom, not wanting to upset 13 year old Cosima, but this time, it was too late. And the doctors ultimately said this coma was irreversible. After this, Alex and Ala went on high alert. They hired a lawyer and a private investigator, who found a used syringe encrusted with insulin in Claus's little black bag of drugs. Because Sunny was hypoglycemic, an injection of insulin would be catastrophic. The first trial included damning testimony from Maria, Alex, and Claus's glamorous soap opera star Mistress, Alexandra Isles -

[15:58] Jessica: Ah! Mother of Fleming School student - Adam Isles. Fleming School… Let's bring this all the way around to the redheaded twins of the 84th Street Gang. Adam Isles and many other... Continue on!

[16:13] Meg: All right. Small little world [Jessica: indeed]. Alexandra had starred in Dark Shadows, which was in the golden age of New York soaps. It ran from 1966 to 1971. It had 1225 episodes. I had to say that because it is so crazy.

[16:32] Jessica: That’s bonkers.

[16:34] Meg: And during the trial, local channel 11 WPIX reran Dark Shadows.

[16:43] Jessica: Did they get through all of them?

[16:45] Meg: I don't think so.

[16:47] Jessica: But what a great moment of marketing for them. They must have been delighted. She was very beautiful.

[16:54] Meg: She absolutely was. And she was descended from Danish nobility.

[16:59] Jessica: There you go.

[16:59] Meg: And went to Chapin. Again, small, small world.

[17:05] Jessica: So how much younger was she than Sunny?

[17:08] Meg: Ten years-ish.

[17:09] Jessica: All right, so there was no Chapin overlap?

[17:12] Meg: No. She testified that in March 1979, she found her position of mistress distasteful and she gave Claus six months to divorce Sunny. But then Sunny had her first coma.

[17:30] Jessica: Awkward. And Alexandra's like, “waiiiiit just a minute”.

[17:35] Meg: Actually, I think Claus was like, “The timing isn't great”.

[17:40] Jessica: Oh, I thought that she would be like, “The insulin injection is so great”. Meg: Well, all right. Jessica: Yeah, so I'm waiting for the denouement. Meg: Buckle up. Ok.

[17:50] Meg: Alexandra said Claus told her he had intentionally watched Sunny languish, but lost his nerve in the end and called the doctor. But Alexandra famously said, “I was in love. You do crazy things when you're in love”. So she stayed with him. Months later, when he still wasn't making progress towards a divorce, Alexandra returned his love letters, which, rumor has it, Sunny read. Jessica: Oops. Meg: According to the family's financial officer, Claus would have received $1 million in a divorce, 14 million if she died. With means, motive, and opportunity, the jury was convinced and convicted him of attempting to murder his wife. Twice. Enter: Alan Dershowitz.

[18:42] Jessica: God! He's such a fucking boil on everyone's behind.

[18:46] Meg: But, you know, we kind of didn't know it at the time.

[18:49] Jessica: Well, of course we didn't know it at the time.

[18:51] Meg: But, boy, has he proven himself to be so gross. Talk about a really stinky rabbit hole. I went down an Alan Dershowitz rabbit hole, and I'm still needing to take a shower.

[19:03] Jessica: I'm so sorry. Are you - like, showering with steel wool?

[19:07] Meg: Like, Jeffrey Epstein? That whole thing is, like, just the tip of the iceberg. His first wife… We’ll do a little something on gross men one of these days, and just do…

[19:17] Jessica: Ok, that makes me SO excited and happy because that is hilarious.

[19:22] Meg: We won’t go into super depth on each one.

[19:23] Jessica: But, like, the grossest men of the 80s?

[19:26] Meg: Yeah, and just like do “This is the grossest thing they did, this is the grossest thing they did. This is the grossest thing…”

[19:29] Jessica: Okay, well, so far we know we have Trump or Dershowitz. Meg: And Giuliani! Jessica: Giuliani. Yes. Well, I mean, doesn't our whole cavalcade of murderers fit into this category? Or do you mean...

[19:41] Meg: I feel like these guys are a different category

[19:43] Jessica: Or you mean like public figures who still walk amongst us?

[19:48] Meg: Public figures who also were presenting themselves as heroes and it was all bullshit. Giuliani presenting himself as a hero. Alan Dershowitz. Jessica: Sharpton! Meg: Sharpton! Yes, exactly. See, that's what I'm talking about. That particular category of douchebag. Anywho, back to the story. Claus hired Alan Dershowitz to appeal the verdict, and Dershowitz was able to get the conviction thrown out on a couple of technicalities. And I will tell you what they are because…

[20:18] Jessica: Alan Dershowitz’s tagline should be: “Never met a scumbag I didn't want to party with!” Meg: Holy crap. No joke. Jessica: Ugh!

[20:27] Meg: It all came down to the fact that Alex and Ala had hired a lawyer and a private investigator. And their lawyer took notes that the appellate judge decided the defense had a right to see and that they hadn’t gotten… The defense hadn't had a chance to see in the first trial. So let's have another trial so he can look at the notes. And the other technicality was, since Alex and Ala found the insulin encrusted syringe, the chain of custody had been compromised. In fact, they kind of suggested that Alex had planted it.

[20:58] Jessica: Well, we know that there's no shortage of shitty lawyers in New York who are very happy to blame the victims. Asterisk: go back to Jennifer Levin.

[21:09] Meg: Alan Dershowitz wrote a book about his work on the case, “Reversal of Fortune”, which was made into a movie starring Jeremy Irons (he won the Academy Award for best Actor) and Glenn Close. And not to get on this rabbit hole, but I'm like Glenn! Between Fatal Attraction and Reversal of Fortune, why are you doing all these portrayals of women that are clearly so misogynist?

[21:36] Jessica: Well, isn't that also called “roles that were available at the time to women”?

[21:41] Meg: I mean, I know I shouldn't blame. Jessica: That, you can't. I mean, honestly. Meg: Ok. Alright. Alex and Ala highly objected to the portrayal of Sunny as a pill popping, drunk, needy, nagging mess. And it should be pointed out that Alan Dershowitz never met her! So the source - His source material for his characterization of her - was Close! And Ben, our dear listener Ben called it “The worst male gaze imaginable”.

[22:13] Jessica: Ooh, wait. I'm giving Ben a slow clap. Well done.

[22:19] Meg: In fact, Sunny's close friends say Claus isolated her in the three years before her final coma.

[22:27] Jessica: Classic abuser behavior.

[22:30] Meg: Answering the phone and taking messages she never received. So in the second trial, the defense posited that Sunny had caused her own coma, either accidentally or on purpose. Does that sound familiar at all?

[22:46] Jessica: Hmmm. Yes. Yes, it does.

[22:51] Meg: Ana Mendieta. Jessica: Yeah! Meg: It was like they had a little black book of like… Jessica: Well, honey, it’s not just Ana,

[22:55] Jessica: that’s every woman in peril. You know? Jennifer Levin strangled herself with her own bra. Like, what are you talking about?!

[23:06] Meg: And like I said, they implied that Alex had planted the syringe - trust me, Alex did not plant the friggin syringe - and that the syringe wouldn't have insulin on the outside of it if it had been injected. And I'm like, hold on a second. I've seen syringes.

[23:22] Jessica: They leak. Meg: They leak!

[23:24] Meg: So what the hell are you talking about?

[23:26] Jessica: I mean, we are two laypeople, and we know that.

[23:28] Meg: Exactly. Basically, they blamed the victim and threw doubt on the science. Alexandra von Isles fled to Europe to avoid testifying again. But Alex and Ala gave a press conference pleading her to return, and she did. And again made it clear that she believed Claus was guilty of twice attempting to murder Sunny. Quote, “I wasn't the motive. The money was the motive. He had me for free.”

[23:59] Jessica: She was so good with a sound bite!

[24:03] Meg: In 1985, Claus was found not guilty and promptly threw a dinner party inviting his most ardent supporters, many of whom were society women the press called Clausettes. Jessica: Gross. Meg: Cosima remained devoted to her father and convinced of his innocence. In fact, her grandmother, Annie Laurie, disinherited her after Claus won his appeal out of concern that she would share her wealth with her father. After the verdict, Alex and Ala sued Claus for $56 million, and Cosima sued to have her grandmother's will overturned (Annie Laurie had died before the second trial). These suits were all settled in 1987 with the stipulations that Claus divorced Sunny, not discuss any of the case publicly, and renounce claims to Sunny's estate.

[24:55] Jessica: So Sunny is obviously still alive.

[24:58] Meg: Still alive. There were many rumors about how Claus supported himself during the trial and managed to pay his army of lawyers.

[25:09] Jessica: Most assumed… Jessica: Gigolo to all of those women at his triumphant party? Cat burglar? Meg: Getty! Getty. Getty. Jessica: Oh, Getty.

[25:18] Meg: But also remember Andrea Reynolds? She certainly helped gather funds from friends. She was a great person to have by his side. She was the organizer. She hung out in the CNN truck to watch the trial because she wasn't allowed in the courtroom. She was basically his, like….

[25:42] Jessica: PR machine? Funding?

[25:43] Meg: Yes, absolutely.

[25:44] Jessica: Who are these people?

[25:46] Meg: Sunny died in a private nursing home on the Upper East Side in 2008. For 28 years, she slept.

[25:56] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[25:56] Meg: Porthault sheets on her hospital bed, paintings from her New York apartment on her walls, fresh flowers on her bedside table, music playing. Manicurists and hairdressers tended to her nails and hair. Alex, Ala, and other close friends visited regularly. At her memorial service at Brick Church, Alex spoke of her perfect taste, her love of decorating her houses, her secret desire to be an astronaut, and her love of her four yellow Labradors. Quote, “The dogs worshipped my mother”. Claus lived in London until his death. In 2019, he was joined by Cosima after she graduated from Brown, and he hobnobbed with the best of them. Quote, “Now, after all this unpleasantness, I always get the best table.” Annie Laurie’s -

[26:49] Jessica: What a Shitbird. My God!

[26:52] Meg: Annie Laurie’s widower once said of his son in law, quote, “He is an extremely dangerous man because he's a Cambridge educated con man with legal training. He is totally immoral, greedy as a wolverine, cold-blooded as a snake. And I apologize to the snake.”

[27:14] Jessica: Great line. Meg whispering: I knowwww. Jessica: Who are these people's speech writers? I mean, really? Alexandra Isles and the father in law, A++. Yeah. I mean, if you were in New York at the time, there was no way not to be riveted by this. And, man, when that movie came out, that movie just exploded because the story, this was one of the true truth is stranger than fiction moments. Meg: Yes. Jessica: And as an adult, I mean, at the time, I remember, you know, just sort of being aware that this was, like, high society crazy crackers insanity.

[27:53] Meg: What happens behind the doors at Newport.

[27:54] Jessica: Yeah. And being like, oh, Adam Isles's mom is part of this.

[27:58] Jessica: And how old was Sunny when she was…? Meg: 49.

[28:03] Jessica: Okay. Can you imagine one of our pals, like, our peers, suddenly were like, “Oh, yeah, she's in a coma in New York hospital”. I identify so much more with this than any of the other murders that we've discussed.

[28:20] Meg: I mean, the thing I remember was really how people were just mesmerized by the movie. And then I did rewatch the movie. And…

[28:30] Jessica: And Jeremy Irons is so scary.

[28:34] Meg: He's very good. And I certainly wouldn't say that he's a sympathetic character, but Sunny is played like a mess. And I do think that I was like, “Oh, well, I mean, he probably did it, or maybe he did or whatever. But in the meantime, she was a total drug addict, and she was a hot mess.”

[28:54] Jessica: Well, I mean, they use Dershowitz's perspective. His point of view.

[28:57] Meg: I know! But that is the flashiest, most effective way to convince people of who somebody is. Like, do a friggin movie and have an awful portrayal of them. I have a happy story for next week.

[29:12] Jessica: Really?

[29:14] Meg: Well, sort of. It's just a scandalous story.

[29:15] Jessica: Ooh, I love it!

[29:28] Meg: Just one more thing about the von Bülow situation.

[29:31] Jessica: I'm very excited. What is it?

[29:32] Meg: Cosima and Alex and Ala are friends again.

[29:37] Jessica: I love that.

[29:38] Meg: Yeah, I was very happy about that, too.

[29:40] Jessica: Siblings are important.

[29:41] Meg: Yes. All right. What you got?

[29:43] Jessica: Well, you referred earlier to the fact that you went down many rabbit holes for your story. Meg: Yes. Jessica: I am actually going to take you on a journey through and around and past and back into a whole bunch of rabbit holes. It's basically being inside my head.

[30:05] Meg: Oh, dear.

[30:06] Jessica: Which I really, really think is going to be massively good fun.

[30:11] Meg: I - I am - I'm prepared.

[30:12] Jessica: Oh, please. It's not that scary. Don't be ridiculous. I was thinking about, who do I know, like, “what's interesting?”. I decided - in a very self-involved moment - to not look online like, “what's up in the 80s?” But instead to think, “what's up with me?” And I remembered that I know a very interesting person who did something really fascinating in the 80s. Meg: Okay. Jessica: So my dear friend Lori - who was my business partner when I was a book packager - she's an art director and designer. She does a million things. Her husband, Stuart Shapiro, first name check. Stuart Shapiro started something amazing that a lot of people in New York will know about that popped up on television late night. No, not Channel J. Uh, in 1981 called “Night Flight”.

[31:17] Meg: Oh, my gosh. Jessica: What? Meg: That's really weird. We follow them on, on Instagram or they follow us or something. I see so much footage from Night Flight.

[31:27] Jessica: Well, there you go. That's why. Meg: It’s wacky! Jessica: Night Flight was an amazing thing. It was completely groundbreaking and it did a lot of things that MTV wound up appropriating. Meg: Yeah, yeah. Jessica: So Night Flight showed music videos, and they were showing them really as an art form because all of Night Flight, even though it had like a very 80s pop, it could have been something really innocuous, right? It was really subversive. It was really, really cool. And it showed… It was very focused on art and that art was performance art and old movies and weird old cartoons and music videos and musicians and interviews with musicians. Do you remember how on MTV, all the videos had a little thing on the lower left hand corner in white knockout type that said the name of the video, the name of the band, the name of the director? Night Flight was the first one to say who the director was. Meg: Oh, cool! Jessica: Right? And think of how many careers were launched as music video directors. Innumerable. Night Flight was really amazing. And I thought; “okay, I'm going to start with Night Flight and I'm going to give Stuart a plug because I know that they're doing all sorts of things with Night Flight now, now that all things 80s are getting very hip again…” Meg: Right! Jessica: There's a Night Flight channel on YouTube, but I think that they're licensing the material and it's popping up in new places. So anyway, look out for Night Flight. Very cool. But I found out why they were able to make such a splash in 1981. Meg: Why? Jessica: There was a writers strike and none of the writers for SNL or any of the other big TV shows were working, and so they were doing this other stuff and freelance, or maybe it wasn't even that. Maybe, you know what? I should ask Stuart. But there wasn't new material coming out. So I know that Stuart and his business partner ran off to USA Network to see if they would sponsor the show, and they did. And that's how it wound up on the air. Night Flight has 123,000 followers on Instagram.

[33:50] Meg: On Instagram? Yeah.

[33:51] Jessica: Amazing. Meg: Good for them. Jessica: So anyway, we love Stuart. We love Lori. They are friends of the cast, so that's a big shout out to them. But one of the… Stuart is a really cutting edge kind of guy. And so they were looking for all kinds of weird crap. And by the way, he was the director of Night Flight.

[34:10] Meg: And what channel was it on? It must have been a cable thing.

[34:13] Jessica: It was a cable thing. And because it was cable, they could show more risque stuff. And risque, I don't mean nudity necessarily, but remember how there were all of these videos that were banned on MTV or just never even made it onto MTV at all? And they were mostly, to your earlier point, “Euro”. They were all on Night Flight. So… because cable.

[34:35] Meg: I'm so glad you're talking about this, because they started following us. So I see a lot of it, and it rang a bit of a bell, but I was like, I can't quite put it in my life. I can't quite remember why I remember it, why it looks familiar. And this is so exciting because all of it is just quintessentially 80s.

[34:54] Jessica: And it's so quintessentially New York.

[34:56] Meg: Yeah.

[34:56] Jessica: And so then Stewart went one step further… or farther… but he then - I didn't even know this - He produced the ultimate New York in the 80s movie, Mondo New York. Are you aware of this?

[35:12] Meg: No.

[35:13] Jessica: All right. So for all of our listeners, do yourself a favor. If you have any interest in the East Village and the Lower East Side of New York City in the 80s, if you thought that After Hours was fun and fun fiction, Mondo New York actually takes you on a tour of all of that. Some of our pals who we have mentioned in past podcasts were featured in Mondo New York. So now my rabbit hole is getting more and more connected and convoluted and all of that. I know that I just hit the mic stand and there was a noise. I'm sorry, Meg. Meg: It's okay. Jessica: So it was about the East Village art scene. It was released in 1988 and some of the old friends are named the names that will ring some bells for our listeners. Ann Magnuson was in it. Karen Finley was in it, and a few other people who, if you're aware of the New York counterculture, these are names that will be familiar. There was Annie Sprinkle, who was a-a very well known -uh- porn star. She had the biggest boobs you've ever seen in your entire life. And she was all about, like, having sex and being all over the place was a joyous thing. Like, it wasn't dirty and creepy. And she became a sex educator. But she um, also did some performance art and was... Remember that thing on HBO, Real Sex? Meg: Vaguely. Jessica: Do you remember this? It was, I think it was in the 90s and they would interview people on the street and be like, what's the craziest? Blah, blah, blah. And then they go to a clip about some weirdo, like, sexual commune or whatever. Anyway, she was always… Do you remember what I'm talking about now? Meg: Yeah. Jessica: You had a face of recognition.

[37:10] Meg: Well, that kind of show is very “of a time”.

[37:14] Jessica: That's where I learned what pony play is. Do you know what that is? Meg: I don't. Jessica: Do you want to know? Yeah, because of course you do. So here's how much times have changed. This is not considered Whackadoo fringe anymore. Maybe it's because it's so whackadoo that it entered pop culture. I'm not sure, but I love people. This is so ridiculous. Meg (laughing): What are they doing when they do pony play? Jessica: You know all those girls and boys who are really into my pretty pony? Meg: Yes..? Jessica: Well, there are also some girls and boys who wanted to be my pretty pony. Meg: Okay… Jessica: So pony play is role play, sexual roleplay where one person's the pony [Meg: Oh, someone else rides them] and the other person else is the rider or-or pretends to be in a wagon or something behind them. Meg: Ok… Jessica: What is the horse racing with the little..? Meg: Chariot? Jessica: No, it’s um… It'll come to me. Anyway… But they get very into the look. So the horse. The pony has a full horse and… Meg: Carriage? Jessica: No, it's a very specific thing that's horse racing [Meg: Ok, sorry]. It's like on a two wheel wagony device. So the pony is in.. has, like, a harness and a bridle and a bit and a saddle. But they also have little special shoes that look like hooves and ears. And guess how the tail works? Meg: How does the tail work? Jessica: Come on, let's just use common sense for a second. Meg: Don't make me use my common sense right now. Jessica: There's nothing like a butt plug with a giant horse's tail coming off.

[39:05] Meg: I would never have come up with that Jessica! Ever! EVER! [Jessica: How could you not!?].

[39:09] Jessica: How could you not? It's like it's a tail. You're naked probably because it's pony play, sex play. Where's it going to go? There's only one place to attach it, for God's sakes. Anyway, so this is a marvelous [Meg: Live and learn.] digression, as I am wont to do. But Annie Sprinkle was part of that whole world of sex, you know what? Do you remember the phrase “sex positive” from the 90s, how that cropped up and it was like, “you shouldn't be ashamed of having sex anymore, but we're going to show you the ugliest people we possibly can, and they're going to have a butt plug with a horse's tail up their ass!”. Woohoo! Sex positivity! It's like, I don't need to be that positive. I'm fascinated, but in a - you know - like geek at the sideshow kind of way, not in a “Ooh, I'm so positive I'll try - I'm positive I'll try this!”. Ay caramba! It was a special time. But Annie Sprinkle - back to her. She was even doing this in the 70s. And Phoebe Legere was in it, who I'm convinced after looking her up, that she has to be, to some degree, the inspiration for Phoebe Buffay on Friends. So, Phoebe Legere was um - you know - one of these weird fixtures - you know - in the music scene downtown. Then I found out that she was a virtuoso who played seven instruments and in later years invented an instrument so that physically handicapped or handicapable children could play a musical instrument. You're going straight to hell. Meg: It just got me punchy. Jessica: It's Annie Sprinkle that did it to you, right? Or was it the ponies? Clip-clop! Clip-clop! Clip-clop! Anyway, so Phoebe Legere - fabulous person - and also Lydia Lunch, who is a major, major downtown punk musician, and - you know - they don't name bands the way they used to. Like, people think, “oh, The Killers - you know - what an edgy name”. Or like, the Chainsmokers. Who cares? Lydia Lynch's band was Teenage Jesus and the Jerks. Like, that's a band name. I'm just saying, I think that people really need to reassess what they think is edgy, because teenage Jesus and the Jerks? Yay! Yay. Lydia Lunch. I always thought that she got her name because it was, like, in joke of extreme darkness or whatever. No, she was just so poor, and they were all so poor that she would steal other people's lunches. So they called her Lydia Lunch Meg: Weird! Sometimes they’re edgy, and sometimes they’re just bored. Jessica: Sometimes they're literal! So yeah, but anyway, so this is Mondo New York, 1988 and all of these people who were part of the late 70s through the 80s and into the 90s scene - you know - they were all part of it. And so it's a great... And some of it obviously is scripted and some of it is not. And some of the other people in it were - and are still - alive, really cutting edge people on the New York art scene, specifically of gay artists. Meg: Okay. Jessica: So now we're going to go into another rabbit hole. Now here is something I didn't even know about. In Mondo New York, are John Sex, Joey Arias, famed cabaret singer and performer and drag queen, and everything around New York, as well as Dean Johnson. Dean Johnson had a band called Dean and the Weenies. Meg: Okay. Jessica: And he was very famous, seen all around New York. He was like 6”6’, bald as can be, very lanky and pale and gender fluid. Not quite drag, not quite, not. And very, very punk. And so what I learned is that this punk gay movement - now we're going to move out of Mondo New York and into this thing that I read about - that I'm sure there is a large swath of our audience that's going to say, “Jessica, seriously? No duh!”. But I didn't know… Meg: What?? What?? Jessica: Homo Core, which became queer core. Are you aware of this?

[43:49] Meg: No.

[43:49] Jessica: See, neither was I. All right, so now I'm going to refer to my notes. Meg: okay. Jessica: Punk, as we know, has always been an expression of anti-establishment and it's usually dissatisfaction and anger at something political or social, whatever it is that's going on. It's commentary, it's angry and it's fast. And it's - you know - to quote the Ramons, “three chords and the truth”. Right? So it's not such a stretch to think that during this time period in the late 70s and through the 80s, with the AIDS crisis going on, that gay performers were embracing punk. It was in the Seattle area, LA, New York, DC, some Philadelphia. But in New York there was this really strong, originally was Homo Core, and then it became Queer Core to be more inclusive. But Dean Johnson is kind of the poster child for all of this. As were - now this might be our tie in - another very famous - certainly in New York - singer and performance artist named Klaus Nomi. So we have two Claus's on the show now.

[45:03] Meg: *unintelligible*.

[45:04] Jessica: Yes. Well, he was also in Mondo New York, and, AND famously on Night Flight. And if memory serves, he did an interview with David Bowie. I can't recall, but they were all on one of the Night Flight episodes. Anyway, all fabulous. And so I'm reading about this Homo Core thing and then I realized, to quote Nancy Walker. But it wasn't already. I've already gone.

[45:35] Meg: Nancy Walker is the…

[45:36] Jessica: No, no, that's not right. I was thinking about “You're soaking in it”. I wanted to go for the “you're soaking in it, Madge” joke. But that was… That was… Meg: That was Marge Redmond. Jessica: Yes. Who's Marge Redmond?

[45:48] Meg: She was the actress who did “You're soaking in it”.

[45:50] Jessica: Well, and Nancy Walker was the bounty paper towel lady. Meg: Yeah. Jessica: Okay, so “you're soaking in it”... It was Palmolive! So like the Palmolive people, there I was. I realized as I was reading about Homo Core and Queer Core, that I had been soaking in it. Meg: Okayyyy! Jessica: in the early aughts, yes. And by the way, it continues to this day. But that was really the genesis in the 80s and this gay punk rock subculture had, um… It was attached. Like, there were certain venues where you were more likely to see some of these kinds of bands. And I remember at the time, I was hanging out with a lot of people at one of the many now defunct lesbian bars in the city. Meow Mix on… Meg: Houston! Jessica: Right.

[46:43] Meg: No, on 14th. No! On Houston!

[46:44] Jessica: No, right, on Houston. And there was an all female Led Zeppelin cover band called Les Zeppelin that played there and I knew someone who was in that band because she was in another band with a bunch of people who I knew - some I still do know - who played at the boiler room - Meg: Oh, yeah… Jessica: Right?- Gay bar. That also was a music venue. And so these friends of mine were in a band called Tut. And Tut was the brainchild of the lead singer and just head of this band, Corey Tuttweiler. There was a DJ called Michael T. Who was part of all of this, but there was a band. Now, to anyone who's listening to this, I am praying that this is going to ring a bell, because I have been searching for days for who or what this band was that I'm about to describe, and I cannot find it. I'm praying that someone knows what I'm talking about and will tell us. But it was this glam rock, all gay band that was performing in the East Village, and it was electrifying. The lead singer was like a creature possessed, but it was all like glam, glitter boots and a lot of capes. You know, when a cape is involved -

[48:09] Meg: How are people going to be able to identify? The capes?

[48:11] Jessica: I don't know if they saw, like, it's one of those things where if you saw it, you will never forget it. Meg: Okay. Jessica: Because it was like being front and center for like, an acid trip that Mark Boland was having and you just happened to be able to be there. So if anyone knows what I'm talking about… But that was all going on. And the other place that was a big part of this is like an after… I don't know if you can really legitimately say an after party place. I would say it's the continued rampant cocaine inhalation party would go on at The Cock, which I think still…

[48:52] Meg: I don't know where that is.

[48:53] Jessica: I don't mean to sound funny, but I think it still stands. Meg: I hope so. Jessica: Anyway, that's a weirdo rabbit hole. And I realized that almost everything that interests me [Meg: goes back to this hole] goes back to East Village. Yes. Was in… Was in this… And by hole, I mean remind me to tell you the story of-of my unfortunate moment in a bathroom stall at The Cock and my first encounter with a glory hole. I wasn't interested. I couldn't imagine anyone would be. But - you know - different strokes for different folks. Meg: Sex positive... Jessica: I'm positive I don't want to do that!

[49:49] Meg: So we had two Clauses.

[49:51] Jessica: Our tie ins. Our tie ins. Yes, the Clauses. We had two Clauses.

[49:55] Meg: We had drugs.

[49:56] Jessica: We had Sunny's drugs and drugs, you know, in clubs. Meg: TV. Jessica: Oh, yes.

[50:03] Meg: Channel 11

[50:04] Jessica: Local TV.

[50:05] Meg: Yes.

[50:06] Jessica: Well, ours was [Meg: and Night Flight] was cable, but okay, there's a TV tie in. Things that could be viewed on the television box, which was a box at the time. FYI for all of you children…

[50:19] Meg: That’s a lot. Jessica: We’ve tied up a lot.

[50:20] Jessica: All right. I like the Claus squared. Claus x Klaus. All right, Meg, that was really, really fun. Yours was harrowing. Mine was rabbit hole-ish. And next week, you have something that's bright and cheerful?

[50:36] Meg: Oh, it's not cheerful at all, but I think you will enjoy it. It's very juicy gossip.

[50:42] Jessica: Oh, my God. I live for this. Well, I can't wait.