[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live.

[00:28] Meg: And where we podcast about New York City in the '80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:33] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: So I heard from Alex.

[00:37] Jessica: Alex. BFF.

[00:38] Meg: Alex. BFF.

[00:39] Jessica: Okay.

[00:40] Meg: Amazing episode today, but please, ladies, repeat after me. Clash of the Titans is NOT, NOT, NOT...all in all caps, an obscure movie, for crying out loud. It had Laurence Olivier, Maggie Smith, Harry "L.A. Law" Hamlin, Burgess Meredith, and Claire Bloom in it. It was a major release. I saw it real time at the West Hampton theater. Upon its release, it gave life to the catchphrase Release the Kraken!

[01:14] Jessica: Duly noted. Also, I would like you to know that I received that as a personal rebuke as well, directly to my own email or text. So I already. He Released the Kraken on us as well.

[01:29] Meg: I don't even know what that means.

[01:30] Jessica: Okay, well, that might be. You know, the Kraken is the sea monster that, like, comes out of the water.

[01:38] Meg: I don't know this movie, but that's what you're saying. In Clash of the Titans, Kraken is a sea monster.

[01:44] Jessica: Well, the Kraken is a mythological monster.

[01:47] Meg: Okay. Okay.

[01:49] Jessica: You know, Clash of the Titans is about now. Alix is gonna come and get me again. I can't remember. I think it's the greek gods. I think Laurence Olivier is Zeus or something like that.

[01:58] Meg: All right.

[01:58] Jessica: And they're battling, and I don't remember why they're battling, but the Kraken is a mythological creature like the minotaur.

[02:07] Meg: Okay.

[02:08] Jessica: Right. So the Kraken was a bad guy. You don't want to mess with the Kraken. And he would emerge from the ocean in a swirl of terror.

[02:19] Meg: So do people say that as a catchphrase? Like, Release the Kraken!

[02:23] Jessica: Yes, it's a thing.

[02:24] Meg: Okay, I'll try using it.

[02:25] Jessica: Maybe we'll have a viewing of the film, maybe not. Just say it. We'll find the clip. We'll find the clip on YouTube.

[02:34] Meg: Okay, perfect.

[02:35] Jessica: Is that?

[02:46] Meg: First of all, my story today was a personal request from BFF Nick.

[02:54] Jessica: Okay. I'm eager to hear.

[02:57] Meg: Your engagement question is, what was your favorite gay bar? Not what is, but what was. Or you can say what is whatever. You can say whatever you want.

[03:11] Jessica: No, no. It's funny, because I don't think I've been to a gay bar with subversive intent in 20 years. So, I mean, Nick and I used to go dancing at Crowbar. They had an '80s night in the '90s.

[03:30] Meg: Nice.

[03:30] Jessica: And it was where I famously, between the two of us, said to him how much I loved going dancing there because, like, you get so hot and sweaty. Everyone took their shirt off. So I think I was in a bra at one point, and I said to him with glee, probably on a huge amount of drugs, Oh, my God, I love this place so much because if a guy puts his hands on me, it's to move me out of the way to get to another guy. So I loved Crowbar and Nick used to live around the corner when he was living with his dad on 13th Street. He lived around the corner from a gay bar that was a legend Uncle Charlie's, where we had a night of unparalleled insanity that ended up at, I think it was Universal Grill, which was primarily gay as well, where if they brought, if you said it was your birthday, they brought whatever, like a sundae or something, and played the Wonder Woman theme song, the original Lynda Carter. And it was glorious. But ill, I'll save the story. But there was a grouping, I would say, that were our favorites.

[04:47] Meg: That's nice. You know, I was the cover girl on HX Magazine.

[04:54] Jessica: You were probably the only woman on the cover of HX Magazine ever.

[04:58] Meg: And the article was about women who hang out in gay bars.

[05:03] Jessica: Did they use the term that is considered no longer politically correct.

[05:07] Meg: They did, yes. I was called a fag hag.

[05:12] Jessica: I wore that title with enormous pride.

[05:14] Meg: As did I. And I talked about it in the interview. I didn't have any problem with it.

[05:19] Jessica: I mean, if you're gonna hang out with anybody, wouldn't you want it to be the gay boys of the '90s?

[05:24] Meg: Yeah, but, I mean, that's a little bit of a claim to fame, right?

[05:27] Jessica: Oh, yes. You.

[05:28] Meg: Although the pictures were not attractive of me, I did not look my best. I'd been hanging out at the bar too much.

[05:35] Jessica: Well, that'll wreak havoc even on a 20 something year old's face, I'm sure.

[05:41] Meg: All right, my sources for today's story are The New York Times, Jeremiah's Vanishing New York, which I believe we've discussed but is worth revisiting, fantastic website. All about the things that used to be in New York and no longer are. Hence, Vanishing, the title of the website, New York Post and OutWeek. In 1987, Rick Whitaker, a 29 year old writer from Ohio, arrived in New York City. He had been told that if he visited just one gay bar in the city, it must be Uncle Charlie's on Greenwich Street in the West Village. Quote, "it was totally different than any bar I'd ever been in. It was the first time I'd seen so many good looking men packed into one room". Uncle Charlie's, which opened in 1980, was one of the first gay bars to cater to yuppies and college kids. Other gay bars were dark and lurky, but Uncle Charlie's was slick, modern, and appealed to a younger crowd who didn't mind being seen in brighter light. It was a video bar and featured the MTV offerings of Madonna and the Pet Shop Boys. Gay men were happy to bring their straight girlfriends there. It was called an S&M bar, which in this case meant stand and model. Some gripe that the patrons were distracted by watching this new fad called music videos, sacrificing old fashioned conversation. Isn't that funny? Considering iPhones.

[07:22] Jessica: I think they were plenty happy cruising each other. They were just fine.

[07:25] Meg: GoGo boys, slung drinks and flirted. One man wrote on Reddit of his Uncle Charlie's days, quote, "for me, the old Uncle Charlie's on Greenwich holds a special place in my heart. It was the first bar I'd ever set foot in back when I started grad school at NYU. I was pretty much closeted and had never even kissed a guy. But I remember the exhilarating sense of freedom and liberation. I know, Mary, that I felt for the first time."

[07:58] Jessica: I believe the way to say that is Mary.

[08:00] Meg: See, I knew I was gonna do it wrong.

[08:02] Jessica: Oh, Mary.

[08:03] Meg: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. This is still part of the quote. "Addicted to that feeling. I probably went there more than I should have, but it was such an amazing experience. It's where I met the guy with whom I had my first kiss, first date and first same sex encounter. It seems so long ago, but the memories are still vivid. And it was a time before big muscles and shaving every inch of the body were in vogue. Yes, I sound old." Close quote. Isn't that fun?

[08:34] Jessica: It was before David Barton had his way with the Chelsea boys. Yes.

[08:40] Meg: Gary Davenport took over Uncle Charlie's in 1987. Someone had to because Lou Katz, the owner of Uncle Charlie's, got himself in a huge amount of trouble. Lou lived well. He had an apartment at 530 Park and a home at 197 Midway Walk in The Pines. That was going to be my engagement question. Now I remember. It was about Fire Island, but whatever.

[09:08] Jessica: Well, and I still want to know what the engagement question was.

[09:11] Meg: What do you know about Fire Island? What are your experiences with Fire Island?

[09:14] Jessica: I used to go there as a little child.

[09:15] Meg: Okay, let's talk about it for a second.

[09:17] Jessica: I was very tiny. I was really afraid of the water. And I would crouch on the bay side. I would crouch at the water's edge and sort of wave my hands at the water and go, not for me. Not for me. I don't know why. I sounded like Latka Gravas, but not for me. And I gave my mother the worst scare ever when I just went missing. But I, at three years old, had decided to go visit my friend down the street. So I think she should have been prepared for a rather independent streak.

[09:53] Meg: Well, my Fire Island story, a friend of my father's who worked for not Mattel, a company that makes board games, so makes Twister. It might have been Mattel, I'm not sure. But he had an endless supply of board games, and he would just give us bags, and me and Toby just bags and bags of board games. And he had a place on Fire Island, and he invited the entire family to Fire Island. I do remember seeing men kissing each other for the first time in my life, and I was a bit confused. And then I caught on.

[10:30] Jessica: As on does, living in New York.

[10:31] Meg: Exactly. But that was my first experience. So Lou. Lou had a place in Fire Island.

[10:37] Jessica: Wait, what was his last name again? Katz. Katz. Okay.

[10:41] Meg: Lou was described as a, quote, "bon vivant, known for his decadent Fire Island pool parties, where even the plastic drink cups were monogrammed." That doesnt seem like such a big deal now, but at the time, I guess it was a big deal.

[10:55] Jessica: I think there wasnt a silkscreen, everything kind of industry.

[11:00] Meg: Fair enough.

[11:01] Jessica: I'm going with that.

[11:03] Meg: One of his Fire Island besties was Roy Cohn. So you get sort of a sense of who Lou is. He definitely had mafia contacts as well. On April 30, 1986, just a few months before Roy Cohn died of AIDS. Interesting. Lou Katz, who was 57, made his way to Cobble Hill in Brooklyn.

[11:27] Jessica: Okay.

[11:28] Meg: His 20 year old lover, David, had broken up with him and started seeing 37 year old Michael Moriarty, a UPS driver.

[11:36] Jessica: Wait, the lover saw Michael Moriarty, or Lou did.

[11:40] Meg: The lover broke up with Lou to start dating Michael Moriarty.

[11:44] Jessica: Okay.

[11:45] Meg: Lou showed up at Michael's apartment at 160 Hoyt Street. There was a scuffle in the second floor hallway, and Lou Katz stabbed Michael multiple times. When Michael called for help, his roommate, Kenneth Kung, who was 24, rushed out to the hallway with a knife of his own. When police arrived, they witnessed the knife fight between Kenneth and Lou. They ordered the men to put down their weapons. When Lou refused and tried to lunge at Kenneth again, officer Frank Contrera fired one shot that grazed Lou's head. Lou was charged with murder and attempted murder from his hospital bed at Long Island College Hospital. Michael died from his wounds. Kenneth survived.

[12:38] Jessica: A knife fight? This is bananas. Crazy. All right.

[12:41] Meg: Lou Katz's first trial ended in a hung jury.

[12:47] Jessica: You said hung.

[12:50] Meg: Okay, I didn't see that coming. I was appalled, because I'm like, he goes to the man's apartment and knifes him in the hallway, and you're saying there's something ambiguous about that?

[13:01] Jessica: Well, don't you think that that's just a gay bias?

[13:03] Meg: Yes, that's why I'm outraged.

[13:05] Jessica: He had it coming for being gay.

[13:08] Meg: Who knows what happens when these guys get together?

[13:11] Jessica: And, yes, because the gay community is known for duels and knife fights.

[13:18] Meg: Katz put up $400,000 bail and waited for his retrial. He also sold his Park Avenue apartment. He'd already sold Uncle Charlie's to Gary Davenport. He sold his Fire Island home and his Mercedes Benz and then he vanished into thin air. A wanted poster alerted the public that the, quote, "subject is known to wear wigs and is known to frequent homosexual communities." And this is the third time we are talking about a man on the lamb wearing wigs. It was trendy.

[13:57] Jessica: I'm almost feeling like this could be an entire sub podcast.

[14:02] Meg: Men with wigs.

[14:03] Jessica: Men with wigs on the lamb. What on earth? You don't have to, like, sell me on this. I'm all in.

[14:15] Meg: In November 1988, a jury convicted Lou Katz of manslaughter in absentia, and he was sentenced to 13 and 1/3 to 40 years. 13 and 1/3 to 40 years. So strange.

[14:30] Jessica: Yeah.

[14:31] Meg: Then on April 28, 1990, 3 years after Lou's disappearance and 2 years after his conviction, still no sign of Lou. At 12:10 a.m. inside Uncle Charlie's, a bomb exploded in a galvanized metal garbage can near the back wall. The bomb was made of M-80 firecrackers stuffed inside a six inch pipe, closed off on both ends. There was no timing device, so the bomb was ignited, dumped, and exploded in just a matter of moments. The blast ripped a hole in the can and sent broken glass flying. Two patrons and a staff member standing near the can received minor cuts, thank God, to their faces, arms, and hands, and were treated at St. Vincent's. Police said it was not a biased crime, but David Dinkins disagreed, as did several gay rights groups, including Queer Nation. Queer Nation had been founded the previous month by some members of ACT UP. Now, we know ACT UP focuses primarily on people who have AIDS. Queer Nation had this specific mission of eliminating homophobia and was responding to the notable uptick of violence against LGBT people in the streets of New York. Their now famous rallying cry was, "We're here, We're Queer. Get Used to It". 1500 people.

[16:06] Jessica: I just got chills again. Like, I remember that so vividly, being genuinely revolutionary. Like, it was a potent rallying cry and so emotional. And having not heard it in such a long time, like, I just got a little. A little sense memory chill.

[16:25] Meg: And Queer Nation was responsible for reclaiming the word Queer.

[16:30] Jessica: Mm hmm.

[16:31] Meg: And that's why, you know, I'm saying LGBT, because the Queer hadn't quite been added yet, but it was getting there. They're here. 1500 protesters marched from Uncle Charlie's to the 6th Police Precinct station house at 233 West 10th Street with banners that read, "Dykes and Fags Bash Back". As it turned out, the LGBT community was right. They knew it when they saw it. In 1995, the New York Times reported that El-Sayyid A. Nosair, a member of a terrorist group attempting to blow up New York City landmarks, had planted the bomb at Uncle Charlie's as a protest against homosexuality. El-Sayyid was an American citizen born in Egypt and radicalized in Brooklyn at a mosque that was Osama bin Laden adjacent. El-Sayyid got life in prison. The explosion at Uncle Charlie's in 1986 is now considered one of the first terrorist attacks on U.S. soil by a radical muslim group. Interesting.

[17:39] Jessica: Fascinating.

[17:40] Meg: But whatever happened to Lou Katz? You want to know?

[17:44] Jessica: I am burning to know.

[17:46] Meg: A distant relative of Lou's had a bit of a grudge against him and told the FBI. I'm leaning in. They told the FBI to check out Panama. Lou Katz only had one eye. Now, I don't know when he lost this eye. Before or during the knife fight or after. Maybe. I don't even know. No, it couldn't have been after. Cause he disappeared after that. But it was a distinguishing feature. When the FBI got to Panama, they heard tell of a one eyed businessman driving around Panama City in a white Porsche. Turns out 36 white Porsches are registered in Panama. I don't know why.

[18:24] Jessica: Okay.

[18:25] Meg: And a one eyed 70 year old had two of them.

[18:29] Jessica: No.

[18:30] Meg: For 13 years, Lou had been living under the alias Frank Novitsky and running a thriving Panamanian export business. I'm not sure I know what import export means. Do you?

[18:43] Jessica: I mean, it's usually if you ask someone who's engaged in criminal activity, what do you do? It's like import export. But what all that it means is I'm getting goods out of one country and possibly receiving them into the original. It could be rugs, you know, it could be legit. It could be totally legit. But if you have a, let's say, rug company, well, you can roll a lot of things into a rug. So having an import export type of business is a great blind if you are. Oh, blind. Get it? One eyed man. If you are trying to, you know, do something not so right.

[19:26] Meg: And you mentioned this, and he did have connections with the mafia. Lou Katz did. So that kind of makes sense.

[19:33] Jessica: It would make perfect sense.

[19:35] Meg: Yeah.

[19:35] Jessica: And I want to know, though, this is my.

[19:36] Meg: And that it was thriving.

[19:38] Jessica: Here's my favorite thing about this. Number one, white Porsche not laying low, Lou. And number two, Frank Novitsky. Where does that come from? It's like, is that someone he went to high school with and stole the name? Did he just have a moment of inspiration, like, ah, Novitsky. That sounds good. Like what? What is that?

[20:04] Meg: Or that's what the mafia gave him as his new identity when they helped him disappear.

[20:09] Jessica: I don't think that the mafia does relocation. I think they.

[20:12] Meg: I think they do. Why wouldn't they?

[20:14] Jessica: Do they?

[20:15] Meg: They do things, they disappear people.

[20:20] Jessica: If you're disappeared by the mafia, that generally means you dead.

[20:23] Meg: You know what I mean, though? They help people go on the lamb. They go on the lamb.

[20:32] Jessica: I think that you may have just come up with another topic for us to research.

[20:36] Meg: Does the mafia ever go on the lamb?

[20:40] Jessica: I'm sure they go to ground, they go quiet. Underground. But I think that the whole idea of being relocated is if you are a snitch then you get.

[20:52] Meg: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a different story.

[20:56] Jessica: That's my point.

[20:57] Meg: But I'm trying. Yeah, I don't know. I think the mafia helped him. That's all I'm saying.

[21:01] Jessica: Wait, you know what? Let's find a Mafioso. Let's get someone on this podcast.

[21:06] Meg: Well, you know, I'm following Sammy the Bull. He has his own podcast.\

[21:12] Jessica: We need to get him.

[21:13] Meg: He does seem to be kind of harmless now. Anyway.

[21:15] Jessica: I am very willing to go down that road.

[21:20] Meg: In 2002, 72 year old Lou Katz was extradited to the U.S., where he served his sentence at Green Haven Correctional Facility in upstate Stormville and was paroled in 2015. So maybe we can just ask Lou. Uncle Charlie's closed in 1997, at the time. It was a dark day, I remember. At the time; and it was when I was reading the article about it at the time Gary Davenport reported, sadly, Chelsea has become the new Greenwich Village for gay men. And now it's a Fiddlesticks Pub.

[22:00] Jessica: Yeah. It's been Fiddlesticks Pub since '97.

[22:04] Meg: I think so.

[22:05] Jessica: Yeah. So do you wanna know what happened in Uncle Charlie's with Nick?

[22:09] Meg: Sure.

[22:10] Jessica: I'm sure he won't mind this. Cause it's about me. So New Haven Pizza Co. was on 13th Street between 6th and 7th Avenues. And I would meet Nick at New Haven because his dad's townhouse was adjacent, or maybe a door down. New Haven Pizza Co. which, by the way, was also well known for, you order a pizza and you get a bag of blow when it is served to you. But they had a happy hour that was very cheap. One night, I don't know, late afternoon, I got there uncharacteristically early. And as only young people can make these mistakes, I had three martinis. So Nick opens the door of his father's, and I'm swaying in the doorway, like, hi. I. We make our way to Uncle Charlie's, and the night has barely begun and I know that I'm going to be wildly and thoroughly sick. So my not yet husband at the time, Anthony, was with us, and I begged, please, please, someone get the women's bathroom open.

[23:23] Meg: Oh, no.

[23:24] Jessica: They had never opened it before.

[23:26] Meg: Oh, no.

[23:28] Jessica: That's surprising. I know. And I was like, is this the inaugural run for the women's bathroom? They opened it. It was like opening King Tut's tomb. It was like a chorus of angels sang. It was the cleanest, most gorgeous bathroom you have ever seen in and, you know, in New York, you're like, I'm in a bar. I'm just now going to get every disease known to man just by going into this disgusting. No, this, you could eat off the floor. And I was like, I have broken the seal and I did indeed break the seal. It was a bit of a nightmare. And because they were so kind, Nick and Anthony were like, nah, let's keep going. And then went to, I think it was Universal Bar and Grill. And they're like, another drink will fix you. Oh, my God. And I had to sit in the bathroom at that restaurant for, like, an hour because I couldn't crawl out, even on my hands and knees. Oh, and that was the perfect night. Nick will have to write in on this one. So I had a horror, as anyone did at the time cause, you know, drank a lot. There were no Ubers, as we know. So it was all yellow cabs. You didn't want to be the one to throw up in the cab.

[24:49] Meg: No.

[24:50] Jessica: And I knew I was gonna throw up in the cab, like this was going to happen because, you know, the floodgates had already opened. So I opened the car door, while we're moving, and the cab driver screaming, close the door. Don't puke in the cab. Close the door. Don't puke in the cab. And I lean out, and I managed to throw up in the space between the door and the car. And Nick, brilliant. I felt like it was like barf Olympics. It was drunky drunk olympics. And Nick, sitting next to me, was not horrified, was just like, yeah, good job. I'm like, yeah, right. Throwing up in the cab is absolutely the worst thing you could do. And the only other time that I was really in danger of that happening, I had been drinking with my assistant. Always a good look. This is, like, 15 years ago. And I had had no lunch, and we went to Temple Bar, and again, it was the martini. Temple Bar is the best, and the martinis are, like, 10oz each. So I had two martinis.

[25:57] Meg: I was friends with a bartender, so I used to drink there for free.

[26:00] Jessica: And did you, were you able to walk out? Because I started by walking directly into the door.

[26:08] Meg: Well, he was always there, so he was always there to take care of me.

[26:11] Jessica: Well done. So I'm with my assistant and her friend. We get into a cab. I'm so drunk that I, like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do with myself. And they get out at Grand Central, and they're like, are you gonna be okay? And I'm like, I'm fine. Get out. You know, at that time, and David Letterman used to talk about this all the time. The cabs did not smell good. In New York. We know this. This was a thing.

[26:37] Meg: Do they now?

[26:38] Jessica: They didn't. I mean, this was a different standard of real hygiene situation.

[26:46] Meg: Before the little trees that hang from.

[26:49] Jessica: Though those did, like, a lick of good. But they get out, and we're going up Third Avenue, I think, and I know it's coming, and I'm like, I can't throw up in this cab. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And, like, the lady I am, I threw up in my change purse. Wasn't it?

[27:12] Meg: That's beautiful. You had a big change purse.

[27:14] Jessica: No, I had a bag, like a, like a tote bag thing with a zipper change purse. Again, precision vomiting. This is your special skill, right? And the best part. So remember the thing about how it didn't smell so good? I felt like I finally had my revenge because it was like a perfect. It was perfect moment. I threw up very quietly. There was a beat, and then as one, all four windows rolled down at the same time. And I was like, that's me getting mine New York cabbies.

Not a drop. And I recall vividly running up to my apartment too. Let's just say I worked hard to sanitize that bag. You kept it? I loved that bag. It's a great bag. But it was fabric. It was all canvas. So I was able to, like.

[28:23] Meg: All these excuses.

[28:23] Jessica: No.

[28:24] Meg: My God. Do you still?

[28:25] Jessica: I have it here. You can see it.

[28:27] Meg: Okay. We have to take a picture of it and post it on the Instagram.

[28:30] Jessica: You would never know.

[28:31] Meg: I want to know what bag was worth that.

[28:34] Jessica: It was a great bag. All right, so today I have another installment on this day in the '80s. Cool. But I realized that the last time I did this, I chose the day that we were recording. But now I've chosen the day that this will air.

[29:04] Meg: Interesting.

[29:05] Jessica: So, September 26, 1988.

[29:09] Meg: Cool.

[29:09] Jessica: Let's take a little journey, shall we?

[29:12] Meg: I'm excited.

[29:13] Jessica: Well, I chose two, frankly, it's three topics, but one of them is its own thing and the other two are related. But I love doing this because it's such a snapshot of the weirdness of New York. The peculiarities of neighborhoods and of, like, human interest stories don't really shine the way that they did back then. Okay. So the first thing that I'm going to bring our attention to is, Meg, have you, when you've been to LA, have you ever done a tour of any kind? No. So, you know, there are all of these, like, maps of the stories and all that kind of stuff.

[29:57] Meg: I don't do that.

[29:58] Jessica: Not interesting to me at all. And, like, you're stuck on a bus and it's like, look, that's Ginger Roger's old house. And you're like, oh, that's nice.

[30:08] Meg: Right. Whatever.

[30:09] Jessica: But trust New Yorkers to go where people were actually living in their apartment buildings to stalk them. So this particular article is titled Manhattan Stargazing Calls for Low Shoes and High Hopes. Okay, is that face?

[30:27] Meg: Because there's no, I'm excited. Who are they gonna stalk?

[30:30] Jessica: So remember, this is 1988, so we're just going to read a few choice bits. And then I think that it leads very nicely into some of our own celebrity encounters in New York City growing up. And there's one in here that I can refer to and one of our BFF's of the podcast Ale is going to remember this very well. But the guided tour got off the ground at the back door of a certain apartment in the Turtle Bay section of Manhattan where a photo opportunity occurred. A newspaper whose mailing address glowed with the name Katharine Hepburn, along with a flyer for chinese takeout food. It ended several hours later on Fifth Avenue and where did it end? It ended outside of Jackie Onassis's building with all of these people waiting for her, basically. In fact, it says to wave down to them and offer them a cure upstairs in her apartment. And of course, this now brings to mind, like, did this actually happen?

[31:33] Meg: No way.

[31:34] Jessica: No, not on this occasion. But, like, do they have their high hopes for that sort of encounter because she once indulged someone dying to know? But unrealistic is the point. And all of their tour was on the Upper East Side. Some of the places where they visited were Charlie Parker, where he died, where Ethel Merman and Judy Garland's funerals were held. I would assume that's Frank E. Campbell, don't you think?

[32:03] Meg: Must be.

[32:03] Jessica: Had to have been. Where Greta Garbo lived at the time.

[32:07] Meg: Where did she live, do you know?

[32:09] Jessica: Doesn't say.

[32:10] Meg: Oh, okay.

[32:11] Jessica: But we can look it up and we can find the building and put it on Instagram. But my favorite is the comment. It was where Greta Garbo lives and where Shirley MacLaine may relive past lives. Poor Shirley. "Oh, poor Shirley," said Monica Koval, staring across East 52nd Street at a bland high rise, identified by the tour guide as the New York address of the metaphysically minded movie star. Now here's what's so great. She wasn't saying poor Shirley because her privacy was being invaded. She didn't like the building.

[32:45] Meg: No, it sounds like a boring building.

[32:48] Jessica: She could do better.

[32:50] Meg: I mean, seriously, a high rise on 52nd? Bleh.

[32:52] Jessica: Those windows, she said, like a prison.

[32:58] Meg: So really, it's a tour about real estate.

[33:01] Jessica: Isn't everything in New York about real estate/

[33:03] Meg: It often goes back to real estate.

[33:05] Jessica: Really? And they say that while Hollywood had been doing this for a long time, the sidewalks of New York was a new thing. It had been dreamed up by a Dallas travel agency owner. He put these tours together with different themes. So one of them was Famous on Fifth, and it hugged Central Park with occasional detours to side streets and here's a callback. One of the buildings that they looked at on 71st Street was where Bess Myerson's trial took place. Ah.

[33:37] Meg: How could the trial take place at 71st Street? They don't mean her trial, they mean that's where she lived, right?

[33:42] Jessica: I'm sorry. 71st is where she lived and there was a hushed briefing by the person who was doing the tour about the trial.

[33:51] Meg: Got it. That makes more sense. Okay.

[33:53] Jessica: Yes. You know where he got all, they get all of their intel. Where would you think they get all of their intel about where people are and where they.

[34:02] Meg: Paparazzi.

[34:04] Jessica: That's LA. Who in New York knows everything?

[34:07] Meg: Doormen.

[34:08] Jessica: Yes. And the doormen apparently wouldn't ever say anything about their own building, but every other building on the block, they would spill.

[34:18] Meg: I love it.

[34:18] Jessica: Yes. Total. Typical. Barbra Streisand had a place at 1157 3rd Avenue, and there was scuttlebutt that Don Johnson was going to be moving into the building as well.

[34:29] Meg: Gosh, that was a weird coupling.

[34:32] Jessica: Indeed. Then two of the people on this tour described, Charles and Yvonne Lynch, visitors from Indianapolis. They sipped tropical drinks and rested their feet up at Trader Vic's. Mrs. Lynch found the tour guide's preoccupation with suicide, drugs, drink, sexual hanky panky and dark sides of the stars lives puzzling. She asks, "why doesn't anyone say anything nice about Montgomery Clift in front of his former townhouse on East 61st Street?" Where are you from?

[35:05] Meg: Where are you from? You don't know the scuttlebutt on Montgomery Clift?

[35:09] Jessica: Well, he was apparently very nice. Well, sure, but, you know.

[35:12] Meg: But there's also scandal. Also. It sounds like a tour I would love. This was if I could go back in time and be on this tour and take notes.

[35:23] Jessica: Yes, well, Mrs. Lynch was much more impressed with the story about how Malcolm Forbes and Elizabeth Taylor would order in apples and carrots to go feed the horses in the park.

[35:34] Meg: Oh, snore.

[35:35] Jessica: I know.

[35:36] Meg: That's something their PR person was releasing. That doesn't sound for real.

[35:41] Jessica: I couldn't agree more. But Mrs. Lynch liked it, all right. She was interested in hearing about Happy Rockefeller, Robert Redford, Calvin Klein, Oscar de la Renta, Jane Pauley, Gloria Swanson, even Pola Negri.

[35:56] Meg: I mean, really, all those people are so happy and so sweet to each other.

[36:00] Jessica: Oh, nuts. Nutsy. Cuckoo, ridiculous. And Woody Allen's place. Not willing to rely on just anything to dish on Woody, the tour guide quoted Dustin Hoffman, who had nasty things to say about Woody Allen.

[36:17] Meg: Oh, did he?

[36:18] Jessica: He did. He said, don't mess with Woody. He's very rude. Warren James, a young architect, smiled at this intelligence, "It's hard being famous", he said. So that whole story cracked me up because, you know, one of the. We've talked about this, but one of the things about New York that is not LA is that if you're caught gawking at someone, it's death. Like, why would you ever.

[36:47] Meg: It's very tacky. It's not the New York way. You're supposed to pretend you don't recognize anybody.

[36:53] Jessica: Well, best friend of the podcast Ale and I once failed miserably in this way. Do you remember, I think it was a Three Guys coffee shop that was in the seventies on Madison Avenue?

[37:09] Meg: Sure.

[37:09] Jessica: So there we were after school, probably 1986 or so, and I have my back to the door. We're at the counter eating fries, as one does after school, with a Coke, and Ale starts to look very, very weird. And I'm like, of course, in my inimitable style. What? What is it? What are you staring at? You look weird. She's frantically making hand gestures to shut up, which, of course, I'm incapable of doing. This continues until finally I turn around and notice that sitting next to me is Woody Allen. And sitting next to him there at the end of the counter is Mia Farrow. So they're together. He has ordered pie, turns to Mia Farrow, pushes the pie towards her and says, in this voice, would you taste this pie? It doesn't taste right. Well, two 16 year olds are not equipped to handle that. We start laughing so hard. We are 1000% out of control.

[38:22] Meg: Now I do kind of feel sorry for Woody Allen.

[38:24] Jessica: You should.

[38:25] Meg: Sitting next to you at a counter at Three Guys.

[38:28] Jessica: Two morons. Like, you know when you're shaking, like you're shaking and you're trying so hard to look like you're cool, but you're shaking and tears are streaming down your face, and then there's the occasional, ba hah, because you can't. So this is what's happening for these poor people. They got up and left because of us.

[38:49] Meg: Well done. I mean, actually, seriously, well done.

[38:52] Jessica: Well done. Yes. I've also seen him on the street with Soon-Yi.

[38:56] Meg: I used to see him all the time because he lived on my street and her.

[39:00] Jessica: I thought we were still in like the seventies or eighties.

[39:05] Meg: He and Soon-Yi lived on 92nd Street.

[39:07] Jessica: So this was prior to that. And she, because I remember he lived in the seventies because he was right near the Carlisle where he would play.

[39:15] Meg: Right. She, when they lived on 92nd in that beautiful double building. That's right on the same block as Table d'Hote, would open up the doors for Halloween. So you could, if you had a kid, or you wanted to pretend you had a kid, you could sort of peek inside their gorgeous home. But I also saw her all the time because she would take the kids to Natural History Museum.

[39:42] Jessica: Well, the one time that I saw them, they were crossing Madison Avenue, and he had his hand on her upper arm and was steering her across the street, scolding her. I would go with scolding. It was weird, but it is weird. It is.

[39:58] Meg: It looks it, because it is.

[40:02] Jessica: I'm not arguing on that point. Not at all. So we're gonna go from the ridiculous to the fascinating. And earlier, we said everything in New York is about real estate. So I'm gonna do this very quickly. But the other thing that really caught my eye in the newspaper for September 26, 1988, it's the crossover between religion and real estate, because in this newspaper are reported same day, the foundation for the mosque on 96th Street was laid.

[40:35] Meg: Right. I remember that so well. It was a huge construction site forever and ever and ever. And there's all this talk about whether it should be finished. And people were very nervous about finishing a mosque.

[40:53] Jessica: Well, interestingly, the Muslim community owned that space since the 1960s, but they didn't have the money to build the mosque.

[41:03] Meg: Is that why it took so, so long?

[41:04] Jessica: They couldn't raise the money and they. Okay. And the Emir of Kuwait, Sheik Jaber al-Ahmed al-Sabah, he is scheduled to lay the foundation stone of the minaret at a simple religious ceremony. Kuwait funded the mosque, and other Islamic nations that were members of the United Nations came together and funded it. But the main funding came from Kuwait. And I was like, were we friends with Kuwait at the time? Like, what's going on? And I did a little bit of research, and we can feature it some other time. But I found a speech that Ronald Reagan gave at the time praising Kuwait and what good pals we were. Lots of arms dealing going on at the time. Okay, so that was that. So, interestingly, the bulk of the mosque construction costs are being paid by Kuwait, which is contributing about $8 million toward an expected bill of $12 million. Ambassador Abdulhassan is also chairman of the board of trustees for the project, which is composed of the United Nations, representatives of virtually every Islamic state, including Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Turkey. There are a lot of people who are concerned about having conservative Arab nations putting a mosque on 96th Street. The head cleric of the mosque, Doctor Osman, nevertheless sees the new mosque as a unifying force among New York's Muslims, and he hopes it will help smooth over differences of doctrine and ideology among them. So the real problem wasn't the Muslim versus non-Muslim community. It was all of these different nations bringing their worshippers together under one roof who were warring in real life.

[42:58] Meg: But that's a good thing, isn't it?

[42:60] Jessica: That's his point, right? It was indeed. Now, what was interesting to me is that the last lines are, even so, building the mosque has not been trouble free. Last year, the trustees dismissed the mosque's Iranian born architect, Aly S. Dadras, complaining that he had hired a Jewish- owned concern as a technical consultant for the project.

[43:22] Meg: Well, uh oh.

[43:25] Jessica: Not unexpected, I would imagine, but still bad PR. And while we're on the subject of religious intolerance, let's go over to Brooklyn, shall we? Anytime you went over the Brooklyn Bridge, I'm sure you noticed the giant tower with a clock. The Watchtower.

[43:43] Meg: Yes.

[43:44] Jessica: And do you know the Watchtower?

[43:46] Meg: Isn't it Scientology?

[43:48] Jessica: Close. It's Jehovah's Witnesses. Okay, so at the same time that the mosque was being built, Jehovah's Witnesses were planning this 19 story structure in Brooklyn, and there was a massive protest going on in the community, saying that it was going to block views of the East River. It was quite a heated thing, which was interesting because I found out Jehovah's Witnesses were not new to the neighborhood. They had been in that section of Brooklyn since 1908, but with a lower profile. But it had been their home just as much as any other group that lived there. But when this big block building was going to go up, that brought a lot of people out of the woodwork who were not very happy. Much more hostility towards the Jehovah's Witnesses. And why, you ask? Because they did not mix with the community. The whole point of the Jehovah's Witnesses is we're only going to mix with you if we can proselytize.

[44:56] Meg: Okay.

[44:56] Jessica: Other than that, stay away. And the real issue, the way that the bias against the Jehovah's Witnesses was couched, and again, it invites an interesting conversation, is they don't buy anything in this neighborhood. They don't have businesses in this neighborhood, and they don't do anything to promote the neighborhood. They're just here. And they clutter the streets at exactly the same time every day. Because. Because they owned a building already at 50 Columbia Heights. This new building was 25/30 Columbia Heights. So they would leave the buildings all at the same time. So imagine the congestion in the streets. So the residents were like, add another 19 stories. This is not gonna be good. So I thought that was very interesting. And as I was reading it, I was like, well, that just doesn't seem very fair.

[45:53] Meg: It doesn't. I mean, everyone goes to church at basically the same time, too. I mean, whatever.

[45:58] Jessica: And so organizers of the opposition said they have no complaints about the Witnesses themselves. Quote, "we have always had a very cordial relationship with the Watchtower people", said Judy Stanton, Executive Director of the Brooklyn Heights Association, 'it wouldn't make any difference to us if this building was being proposed by a law school." However. I'm not sure. However, not quite so, because as I said, Ruth Gray Phillips had a lot to say about them not giving back to the neighborhood. And I read this and I was like, is that really like, that just seems like a really convenient argument. And then I read this. Chris Klock, a 22 year old member of the group, said in an interview, a Jehovah's Witness, said in an interview outside his dormitory, Kingdom Hall, that the witnesses do care about and help the community. We make an effort in our ministry work to go to people and help them through the scriptures. He said. One of the main tenets of the witnesses religion is that they must teach it to others. So they often spend time witnessing or going door to door. Mr. Klock said that while the witnesses felt no antagonism toward the nonbelievers in the community, they had no desire to become close to them. We wouldn't associate with people like that, have them to our rooms and have a fellowship with them, he said. You know, if you associate with people, you become like them, don't you?

[47:30] Meg: Interesting.

[47:31] Jessica: Yes. So that to me was absolutely like, huh? These are not simple arguments.

[47:38] Meg: No, not at all.

[47:39] Jessica: On the same day, religious antagonism potentially brewing. Brewing. What came of it? What came of it was that both buildings were built. The mosque on 96th Street became a big help during COVID It's a COVID testing place. It still is. Absolutely. a lot of services.

[48:02] Meg: It's hugely important to the community, to the whole neighborhood.

[48:05] Jessica: Very much so. Whereas the Jehovah's Witnesses sold the building, it is now a movie studio. What? And they sold it for $340 million.

[48:16] Meg: Okay.

[48:17] Jessica: And it is now Panorama Studios. All right. Religion real estate in New York. Isn't real estate a religion?

[48:37] Meg: Jessica, I completely forgot to tell you that I heard from BFF of the podcast Regina George, and she also took classes at Body by Gilda with Mary Tyler Moore.

[48:52] Jessica: Oh, yeah, that's right.

[48:53] Meg: And Sigourney Weaver.

[48:55] Jessica: That's a good one.

[48:56] Meg: I mean, that's impressive.

[48:58] Jessica: I remember seeing Mary Tyler Moore And being like, that woman needs a sandwich. Now. She was microscopic. Yes, very painfully thin.

[49:06] Meg: But yeah, I was very happy.

[49:08] Jessica: That's a good one. I love that. I didn't know that. Regina, if you're listening, did we ever do that together? Do tell me. Good one.

[49:16] Meg: So our tie in very well may be mosques.

[49:21] Jessica: I feel like our tie in is tolerance.

[49:24] Meg: Okay, that's better because also the two mosques were so completely different from each other. One was created to radicalize and the other one was created to bring people together.

[49:36] Jessica: And I think it's tolerance.

[49:39] Meg: Giving back to the community.

[49:40] Jessica: Tolerance of Jehovah's Witnesses. Tolerance by the Jehovah's Witnesses of the Brooklyn community. The mosque being not really an issue at all where you might think it would be, and wound up being a big part of this community where we sit right now. So yeah, love thy neighbor or not.