[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live.

[00:27] Meg: And where we podcast about New York City in the '80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:32] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: So, Jessica, it is my birthday next week.

[00:37] Jessica: I know.

[00:38] Meg: We're just a little bit over a week away. And do you know what I want for my birthday?

[00:44] Jessica: A pony. No, what do you want?

[00:49] Meg: I want people to review us on Apple podcasts.

[00:54] Jessica: I think that's a very, very modest request.

[00:58] Meg: Don't you think that's reasonable?

[00:59] Jessica: I do. How do we. Well, we know how to make each other feel guilty. How do we make others feel guilty so that they'll be. It's my birthday. There's weeping. Lots of weeping. So you would like people to.

[01:15] Meg: Go on Apple podcasts and write a review and give us stars and stuff, but mostly just write a little something. Cause it really helps our, like, I don't know, whatever the podcast gods are, they want. They want reviews.

[01:31] Jessica: And if you listen to us but you don't follow us, follow us, too.

[01:36] Meg: I'm going to be very specific about my ask. Review.

[01:39] Jessica: Okay, well, I'm just going to be grabby and say while you're at it, hit a. Hit a button. Awesome.

[01:55] Meg: You will not be happy with me today.

[01:58] Jessica: I feel really grateful that you're giving me a warning. Am I going to need to get a new therapist?

[02:06] Meg: Well, it was a story that was requested by Marie, one of our listeners, and it's absolutely a story that I vaguely remember and I was interested to look into. And it's a story that needs to be told. That said, not a happy one.

[02:25] Jessica: All right, now, I know that we like to just tell the truth, and we do. We say it like it is. But do you feel that anyone with any sensitivities might need to be told anything?

[02:36] Meg: I mean, a young woman does not meet a good end.

[02:39] Jessica: Okay, that's enough. All right. There you go. That's the warning, which basically applies to most things that we talk about.

[02:47] Meg: Yeah. But my engagement question in the meantime. So New York is such an urban environment. There's so many ways you can live here. You can have a doorman building. You can have a buzzer system. What are other kinds of domiciles.

[03:05] Jessica: An incredibly unsafe walk up. You can have video buzz in, not just audio.

[03:15] Meg: That's safer.

[03:16] Jessica: Yes. I don't know. I can't even.

[03:18] Meg: I grew up in a brownstone, so my front door was just right there at the top. Add that and that was unsafe.

[03:25] Jessica: Oh, and you know what's also unsafe is with a brownstone, at least the steps are visible. If you have the under apartment, there's like a little under the main stairs entryway. So that's where people can lurk.

[03:39] Meg: Ooh, Ooh. Jessica, you're right.

[03:42] Jessica: Yeah.

[03:42] Meg: Scary.

[03:43] Jessica: Yeah.

[03:43] Meg: So I know you have lived in a walk up apartment, you grew up in a doorman apartment, you now live in a doorman apart.

[03:49] Jessica: I have lived in a loft with a ground floor entrance. That's it was basically, it was a one story glass factory in Williamsburg. And so there was one just door on the street level that went to a vestibule with another door.

[04:07] Meg: Right.

[04:08] Jessica: So I had that. I had a walk up. I've had doorman buildings, I've had buzzer buildings. I've had like. Yeah, I've been in a lot of different places.

[04:15] Meg: You know, I've never had a doorman my entire life. Never had a doorman.

[04:19] Jessica: And you know, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of the New York doorman.

[04:22] Meg: I know. And you've got lovely doormen too.

[04:25] Jessica: I do, yeah.

[04:26] Meg: They're really nice. They know my name.

[04:28] Jessica: They're, they're, they're with it.

[04:29] Meg: They're very sweet.

[04:30] Jessica: 98% of the time they're with it.

[04:33] Meg: My sources are The New York Times, New York Post, Newsday. On October 10, 1984, Caroline Rose Isenberg moved into apartment 7C at 929 West End Ave with her friend Susan Glassman. That's between 105th and 106th Streets, not too far from Columbia University. She just graduated from Harvard University, where she'd spent most of her energy in the theater department, performing in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, Twelfth Night and The Glass Menagerie. For some reason that just struck me as so '80s.

[05:10] Jessica: Those three plays, oh my God, those were drummed into our heads.

[05:15] Meg: The summer after graduation, she apprenticed at the Williamstown Theatre Festival, which was a rite of passage for most young east coast actors in the '80s. The 7th floor apartment building on West End Avenue was built in 1925. Incidentally, a two bedroom in that building currently rents for $4,000 a month.

[05:35] Jessica: That sounds about right.

[05:37] Meg: It had a buzzer security system and a self service elevator. Do you want to explain how self service elevators in old buildings work?

[05:47] Jessica: Yes. So if you've ever seen a movie that takes place before the 2nd World War or maybe even after, but not much after, the elevators that had the door that's like a collapsing cage.

[06:03] Meg: Like an accordion cage.

[06:04] Jessica: Right. And then there frequently was an elevator operator. The way the elevator went up and down was manually. So you would, you would move the knob, you know, like a, it was like a handle to the right and it would go up and then you put it to the middle to stop and then to the left to go down. So one of the scary things about elevators back in the day was stopping between floors if it would break down. And if it broke down, getting you out was really difficult.

[06:40] Meg: Right. You had to climb up onto the. Well, it depends on where you were, but usually you would have to climb up rather than jump down is my memory when those elevators went awry.

[06:51] Jessica: Yes. And then when having an elevator operator fell out of fashion, tenants were left to do it themselves and probably realized that there was a reason there was a professional at the helm earlier. Because it's not easy to get the thing to stop.

[07:07] Meg: Nope. The building had seen better days. The 15 foot entryway featured yellow walls and dirty tiles. There was one bulb illuminating the hallway and one bulb in the elevator.

[07:21] Jessica: Was Martin Scorsese directing their vestibule?

[07:25] Meg: Fresh to the city, Caroline enrolled in the Neighborhood Playhouse School of the Theatre at 54th Street. They're known for teaching the Meisner technique. Yes and if you. Do you know much about the Meisner technique? I do, because I have gone to school with people who have been taught the Meisner technique.

[07:41] Jessica: All I can tell is that you don't like it because of your tone of voice. It's awful.

[07:46] Meg: I shouldn't be judgy about it. It's awful.

[07:48] Jessica: Oh, please do. Please do.

[07:49] Meg: I have not thoroughly enjoyed working with some people who have gone really deep.

[07:54] Jessica: Well, what is the basic concept?

[07:56] Meg: The idea actually sounds pretty cool. Sanford Meisner was the guy who started it and he's trying to get you to act more spontaneously and just to kind of get out of your head. And it was super, super popular in the '80s and '90s. And there are all these exercises that you can do to kind of get out of your head. It sounds great. Unfortunately, working with some, not all, with some actors who are really into the spontaneous thing, it means that they're always trying to sort of pull the rug out from under you. And I'm like, hey, don't try and throw me off, like you do you. You know what I mean? I think it can be in the wrong hands is all I'm saying.

[08:36] Jessica: Sounds like a loaded weapon. It's like, ah, I'm being spontaneous, so I punched you in the face.

[08:41] Meg: Something like that, in the wrong hands.

[08:43] Jessica: Is this close to method acting.

[08:46] Meg: It has. Sounds like it's a cousin. It's a grandchild.

[08:50] Jessica: Got it.

[08:51] Meg: On the evening of December 1st, Caroline went to see Hurlyburly on Broadway. So '80s. With William Hurt, Christopher Walken, Harvey Keitel, Jerry Stiller, Judith Ivey, Sigourney Weaver, and a young Cynthia Nixon.

[09:10] Jessica: Cynthia Nixon has been acting on Broadway when she was a fetus.

[09:15] Meg: Also when she was in Hurlyburly. She was also in The Real Thing. Across the street. With Jeremy Irons, Roger Reese, and Glenn Close. And ran between the two theaters between acts because Mike Nichols directed both plays. I just name dropped so many people. It's crazy.

[09:35] Jessica: But that. I mean, can you imagine seeing Hurlyburly? That cast is unbelievable. That's. Remember how I told the story about my camp counselor who took me out on a weird date?

[09:45] Meg: Yes.

[09:45] Jessica: That was the production of The Real Thing.

[09:48] Meg: Oh, I saw that. I saw that show with my dad. I remember being like in the first act. I was like, I don't know if this is such a good play. But then that was because it was the play within the play. Yes. That is how good these actors were. Yes.

[10:03] Jessica: Oh, my God. Yes. Very good. Yes. It was phenomenal.

[10:08] Meg: After the show, Caroline got dinner and then returned to her building alone a little after 1am. This is when it takes a turn.

[10:17] Jessica: I see the look on your face, and I'm just. I'm. I'm.

[10:20] Meg: You knew it was coming.

[10:21] Jessica: Of course I knew. You told me it was coming. I'm just, like, getting comfortable and trying to. I'm holding. I'm hugging myself.

[10:29] Meg: As she entered the elevator, a man followed her in and pulled out a knife. He threatened to kill her if she screamed. He then took her to the top floor and muscled her onto the roof of the building. He went through her purse, stealing $12, and then asked her to have sex with him. Caroline resisted, and he went after her with a knife, stabbing her repeatedly. Noreen Williams, who lived on the 6th floor, heard Caroline's screams. Quote, "he's stabbing me. He's going to kill me. I'm bleeding to death. Help me." Noreen and other neighbors called 911, and the police from the 24th Precinct arrived in minutes, but they were on the wrong roof, separated from Caroline by an air shaft. The assailant had apparently run away, leaving Caroline bleeding and screaming 929. 929. That was the address of her actual building. She knew that they weren't on the right roof. She was taken to St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center at 113th Street and Amsterdam Avenue. She was still conscious and described her attacker as, quote, "male, black, light skinned, clean shaven, with a square jaw." The policeman told the press that a nurse told him that Caroline said, quote, "all this for $12. I should have given him the money. I should have let him do it. I should have given in." Caroline died in surgery at 2:05am and these last words that were attributed to her were printed and reprinted in national and local newspapers and sparked a lot of conversation, mostly over how Caroline could have prevented her own murder. Roseanne Lefkowitz wrote in a syndicated column in response to the third hand report that Caroline had regrets. Quote, "while it is tragic that Caroline Isenberg died blaming herself, it is dangerous for us, her survivors, to embrace her view because of what it could mean should we ever face a violent attacker. What reactions will Isenberg's words prompt at such critical moments? And what guarantees any woman who takes them to heart that if she submits to rape, her rapist will allow her to live? There are no guarantees. Violent attackers don't always keep bargains. I once found myself on a rooftop with a would be rapist. I spent the longest moments of my life with a cold muzzle of a gun against my left temple. Caroline Isenberg screamed and was not raped, but murdered. A friend of mine who silently submitted to a rapist with a knife survived. A neighbor who cried out when mugged was shot. I was not. When I screamed, my assailant fled. Now, years later, I can't be sure that the outcome in my case or in any of these others is a direct result of what any of us did or didn't do. Nor have I heard experts judge with much more certainty what will provoke one armed assailant to frenzied violence will cause another's flight." Close quote. Now I remember Jessica at The Nightingale-Bamford School in the '80s when we were at. I remember specifically it was middle school. I remember it was seventh grade that we were advised to give in if we were attacked. Do you have any memory of that?

[14:07] Jessica: Well, I wasn't at The Nightingale-Bamford School at the time, but I do remember there being a lot of discussion about what should you do, not if, sort of not if you were attacked, when you're attacked. I don't recall there being discussion about rape. I remember it being about money and that it was give them everything and throw the wallet so they'll go after the wallet and you can run.

[14:37] Meg: Right. Now, specifically about being potentially raped. I remember being told that if we fought back we'd risk enraging the guy. But that assumed that rape was about sex and not violence. And as you bring up, there's a huge difference between handing over your purse and submitting to being physically assaulted. They're actually completely different motivations and.

[15:02] Jessica: Yes, but that was also the same time period when self defense classes for women were booming. Do you remember all of those?

[15:09] Meg: Well, I do. And yet that wasn't the message that I was given.

[15:14] Jessica: I'm not debating the message that you were given. I'm saying I'm reflecting on the fact that the messaging generally was so conflicted because you had, I mean, even on, like, talk shows, you'd see those, you know, men in, like, these giant protective suits and men and women being like, you kick them in the knee, you kick them in the groin. This is how you do it. Like it was. It was even just daytime tv is what I is my point.

[15:39] Meg: So I guess you're saying that there were two different messages being delivered.

[15:42] Jessica: Yes.

[15:43] Meg: A friend of Emmanuel Torres, the 22 year old son of the building super, told police that Manny was bragging about committing the murder. After being questioned, he claimed he was lying in wait to mug a resident of the building. He said Caroline agreed to have sex with him, but then changed her mind and that's why he stabbed her. Then he hid in the building's basement while Caroline was being tended to. So he didn't in fact run away from the building. He hid in the basement but was spotted by neighbors. He led the police to the 4 inch knife he used in the attack. During his perp walk, he called out to reporters that "she was a slut, it was her own fault." Those are both quotes. He was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. At his sentencing, Justice Stephen Crane said, quote, "to this day, you have never expressed regret at the murder of this beautiful human being. All you have ever done is boast about it to police, to television reporters, and to fellow inmates. Your mother, she is a religious and loving woman. She still believes, despite all we've heard, that you are not guilty. Haven't you duped her long enough?" Oof. Caroline's father, a psychiatrist from Boston, said, quote, "it's funny. Crime is like a microscope. It puts through its reflections an extraordinary light on some of the best things in life. And if this crime has captured anyone's imaginations, it's because we can see what's good in life by looking at what's evil in life."

[17:20] Jessica: It's surprisingly profound and composed for a grieving parent. Yes.

[17:25] Meg: So the takeaway is interesting to me. One is that there was so much press about it and I was thinking why? Oh, and then by the way, there was also backlash press of why is this particular attack and murder getting so much attention? And there's this young woman in Brooklyn who was murdered and nobody cares. So there was lots of that was happening at the time.

[17:52] Jessica: And that's a frequent thing.

[17:54] Meg: I mean, absolutely, but I mean, and we're hearing a lot of that nowadays. But even at the time they were like, why does she get so much attention? And okay, let's think about that for a second.

[18:06] Jessica: Okay.

[18:06] Meg: She went to Harvard University, she was an actress. These are all sort of, you know, it's good copy, catchy things to hook onto.

[18:14] Jessica: I mean it's grotesque to say that, but it is good copy.

[18:18] Meg: But I have another theory too. The police talked to the press, they gave statements to the press. So there was. The police did. Remember a policeman told the press what her last words were and he said he'd heard it from a nurse. So that is a third hand report in very specific language. They also did a perp walk in front of the press. The police were proud of their response to this particular attack. Why, they did get there very quickly, they did catch the guy. And also, you know, I gotta say, I wonder if she even said it.

[18:59] Jessica: Well, that's definitely suspect. I guess the way that you're describing it with the police positioning themselves in here is I wonder what prior to that in the recent past had gone wrong in the police department and was this a way to try to redeem themselves? Because the police department, they don't let cops just talk to the press. It's very buttoned down. And this all the way that you describe it seems very calculated. So I feel like there must have been something that had really looked bad and they're trying to resurrect the profile.

[19:40] Meg: And also, again, this is conjecture, but maybe they were also trying to send out this message, just give in, don't fight back, do what he says.

[19:53] Jessica: Yeah, I can't imagine that the police department had an anti-feminist agenda themselves. Like that seems like an, like as an institutional message.

[20:07] Meg: I'm not suggesting that they have any, oh, that they're feminist or anti-feminist, but it messes up our job, it makes our job more difficult. This is our advice to you.

[20:18] Jessica: Oh, actually, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[20:20] Meg: The woman who responded to what they printed in every single article and magazine that was written about this, her last words, the response that I, that I read that was written at the time and her response to those articles was that shouldn't be the blanket message that is being sent out.

[20:44] Jessica: Oh, no.

[20:45] Meg: And I think for good reason.

[20:46] Jessica: No, I get that and I understand and I agree. I'm just thinking about how the killer was hammering home. She's a slut. You know, she, she got what she was looking for. That, that sort of thing. And how it's compounded by what the police said, that it's sort of like, well, you got yourself here. Give in.

[21:10] Meg: What? Victim blaming.

[21:12] Jessica: What? Yeah, it's victim blaming, but it's, it's also, it's just the much more brazen at the time than now assumption that a woman who's, who's raped or a woman who has is sexually assaulted, that she in some way that her own sexuality was part of the problem.

[21:33] Meg: And I guess in this particular case I didn't get a big read on that, but I did hear the equivalency being made between the $12 in her purse and her physical assault, that those two things were being put in the same basket of things that she should just give away to save her life.

[21:54] Jessica: Oh, I agree with that fully.

[21:56] Meg: And I, I hope we have moved past that because it's actually the motivation behind those two crimes is very different. And I'm not sure if at the time that was fully understood.

[22:09] Jessica: Well, and the advice to just give in assumes a common psychology in all attackers, which is also not the case. There's no, and to the point of the woman who wrote that piece, there's no, there is nothing that unifies these people across the board. And yes, I said these people. I mean rapists and killers.

[22:34] Meg: Right. And that the motivation for rape is just to have sex, which it isn't.

[22:41] Jessica: Rarely, if never, if ever.

[22:42] Meg: Right. And I am pretty sure that was not fully understood in the '80s.

[22:47] Jessica: Agreed. Well, you know what the other thing is? There's, you know, everyone now uses the phrase male lense. That whole situation that you're describing is entirely a male perspective on what should have been done, how she should have behaved. Yes.

[23:03] Meg: Yes, that's my point.

[23:04] Jessica: Very. Yes, I'm with you. Yeah. I just have this really strong memory of this conflicting information for women about, you should give in. You should fight. If you don't fight, it means that you want it. Seriously. That was my, that's, I guess what I was trying to get to earlier, that if you don't fight, it's your fault. When fighting could get you killed. Could not get you killed. Who knows?

[23:32] Meg: On that rosy note.

[23:33] Jessica: Yeah. I think that we need to find a photo of the guys who would dress up in the attacker suits because they look so bananas. They are of a moment.

[23:44] Meg: One of those guys came to The Nightingale-Bamford School when Alice was in lower school, and she was really good at it. This tiny little child. She had no qualms going after this big balloon of a man.

[23:56] Jessica: Well, because you are her mother and you are from a generation that was told something really dumb and then was able to react to it.

[24:06] Meg: I still got her pepper spray, though. Pepper spray's good.

[24:09] Jessica: When I was watching Inspector Morse, there's a girl who's abducted, and her father is like a very. He's like a real estate developer and very tough. And he pulls out of his pocket a little device that lets out a siren, like a screaming siren, and says, and she's at an all girls school, I got them for every. Every girl in the school. So, yeah. Pepper spray.

[24:33] Meg: Pepper spray pro.

[24:34] Jessica: Pepper spray, whistles. So something very, very sad happened this week, and it's something that has hit a lot of people very hard, but it's also. It feels like a very Gen X situation, a loss. So on Saturday, Matthew Perry died in his hot tub. You know, someone said to me, like, do you think it was drugs? And I was like, once you have reached the level of perpetual crisis that that poor man was in, if he died of drugs or he died from a heart attack because he had been so sick for so long, it really doesn't matter. No. But it was very poignant and very, like I said, it was really affecting.

[25:34] Meg: Yes.

[25:35] Jessica: And I know why I think it was. But I wanted to ask you first why you think it's resonated so deeply.

[25:44] Meg: Friends was interesting. They were our age, and they told a story that was supposed to be kind of like us, or at least me and my friends, because we were performers. And you too, I guess, like living, you know, just trying to figure stuff out. And that was certainly the story of those first few seasons before they all started being successful. I remember my brother said when he saw Friends, it reminded him of me and my friends, which I thought was sweet. I thought it was amusing. And then, of course, there was always, like, the backlash. Like, how could they possibly have an apartment like that anyway?

[26:27] Jessica: It's television.

[26:28] Meg: It's television. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like when Luke Perry died, it's like, what's going on here? Why are people who were our age and represented people our age suddenly dying?

[26:43] Jessica: I think you just said exactly what it is. They stood in for people our age for a very long time. And that death feels personal because those shows were designed for us to identify so, so strongly with these archetypes. Right.

[27:05] Meg: Sure. Who are you? Are you a Chandler? Are you a Ross? I remember my friend Robert. I hope he doesn't get mad when I say this, but I would call him a Ross and he would be like, oh, I am not a Ross. Not sure who he wanted to be in that group, but it was not a Ross.

[27:22] Jessica: Yeah, I'm going with Chandler. But I don't know, because I want to be a Joey is sort of like, oh, sweet. Like a golden retriever.

[27:32] Meg: I mean, honestly, I'm obviously Monica.

[27:35] Jessica: Yes, you are. I'm not even going to get involved with anything beyond that.

[27:40] Meg: Sad. Sad for me, but there it is.

[27:42] Jessica: Well, it's just that you like things to be a certain way. I think that's it. I don't. I don't.

[27:48] Meg: Indeed. It's my comfort zone.

[27:49] Jessica: Yes. I don't know if I ever said that there was one in particular that I identified with. But there's a bit of all of them that is incredibly recognizable. So anyway, the death of Matthew Perry, Chandler Bing of Friends and that. You know, we met that actor Matthew Perry when he was 24 years old. Baby. You know, and so that's 25. It's like almost 30 years of, 30 years. It's 30 years of having him as an or the character that he played as a representative of our generation.

[28:26] Meg: Somebody wrote that he created a new rhythm of comedy in the way that he spoke.

[28:35] Jessica: Right.

[28:36] Meg: That didn't exist before.

[28:39] Jessica: Right.

[28:39] Meg: Matthew Perry.

[28:40] Jessica: Yes. And his childhood friend said that was just how he was. And he just, you know, translated it or brought it into the character. So when his death was announced and then celebrities started writing in and, you know, on social media and condolences and comments. The one that really struck me was Morgan Fairchild.

[29:03] Meg: Oh. Who played his mom. Mother.

[29:06] Jessica: I was also really affected by Morgan Fairchild. And I was like, okay, that's weird. Why am I affected by this? At first, I suppose that it was like, okay, so she was a mother figure, you know, commenting. And then I started thinking about, you know, Chandler Bing was this character who we lived with for a very, very long time. And then I realized that, you know, there are a bunch of actresses that we've talked about who, like, were on The Love Boat, like the Landers sisters. And they were just. They were just always there. Right. And Morgan Fairchild, for us, growing up in the '80s, was the epitome of the cool blonde.

[29:48] Meg: Absolutely.

[29:48] Jessica: She was the Veronica. She was the Veronica Lake of her of TV in the '80s. She is still working. Her Love Boat stuff was even before she got even more famous. Okay, so I'm going to have a little talk today about something that I never got into at all when I was a teenager. But I decided to do a little bit of research and I found some fascinating things about something that I know you liked, which was nighttime soaps.

[30:19] Meg: Oh, I mean, I liked one nighttime soap.

[30:22] Jessica: Okay. Which was the one. Dallas. See, now you say that with this shrugging gesture. And what I realized, and I'm going to take us on a little tour of these shows. They were all the same show. They were all produced by the same people practically. Spelling. There's a lot of Spelling. There was also Donald Bellisario, and there was a frenzy of them in the '80s. And we've been talking a lot lately about the Reagan, how the '80s were such a Reagan time and, like, money was important. And I was thinking, like, why was there this proliferation of these wackadoodle shows? And I was like, oh, because they were all about money. Every single one of those shows was about money. You know, soap operas had been a very big thing, even in the '40s and '50s. But in the '60s, it really hit its stride and took hold with Peyton Place, which was the soap opera inspired by the movie of the book by Grace Metalious, I think her name was. And it starred Mia Farrow and Ryan O'Neal, another cool blonde at the time. Peyton Place begat a whole bunch of soaps, which really came to a head in the '80s. So I'm going to walk us through because we, you know, there are some shows you've forgotten about. Okay. So I'm going to take us on a quick little tour and.

[31:53] Meg: Are you talking daytime or nighttime?

[31:54] Jessica: Only nighttime.

[31:55] Meg: Okay.

[31:56] Jessica: Only nighttime. The only. I mean, the only slight reason that the nighttime shows got my attention was in the '80s, I watched the reruns of Soap, okay, with Billy Crystal, Right. Which was one of the most genius comedies of all time. So the, I was aware of how over the top it was if there was some woman was gonna get slapped by another woman at some point. And that was always. So I should have known that that was like a little inkling that I was a high camp person. But anyway, so here are the shows that were on at the time. And tell me if you remember these.

[32:32] Meg: Okay.

[32:33] Jessica: Ready?

[32:33] Meg: Yes.

[32:34] Jessica: From 1985, Berrenger's.

[32:38] Meg: I'll raise my hand when I remember.

[32:40] Jessica: Well, okay, how about. Well, we know Dynasty, obviously. 1981. We know Falcon Crest.

[32:48] Meg: Yes.

[32:49] Jessica: And that was also 1981.

[32:52] Meg: And I did not watch these shows, but they're so iconic that of course I know what, Alexis Kerrigan or something?

[32:58] Jessica: No, Carrington.

[33:00] Meg: Carrington.

[33:00] Jessica: That's Nancy Kerrigan

[33:02] Meg: Oh.

[33:02] Jessica: Now, how about this one from 1980, predating Dynasty, Flamingo Road.

[33:09] Meg: I believe that Morgan Fairchild was on Flamingo Road, and I think she was on it with Mark Harmon.

[33:17] Jessica: Ugh. Mark Harmon in his heyday.

[33:22] Meg: So the two women on Flamingo Road was how I was like, oh, that's what beauty is. These two people together lusting after each other.

[33:33] Jessica: That is not wrong, though. That is an accurate depiction of a particular type of beauty. There was also from 1984. Do you remember? Did you ever hear of Glitter?

[33:45] Meg: No. Sounds fun.

[33:47] Jessica: How about King's Crossing in 1982?

[33:52] Meg: I don't think I do know that.

[33:54] Jessica: And this is something I remember vividly from 1984. Paper Dolls. Oh, wait.

[34:01] Meg: Were they models? They were young models. Yes.

[34:03] Jessica: Nicollette Sheridan. That was her debut.

[34:07] Meg: How many seasons did that last?

[34:09] Jessica: 14 episodes.

[34:11] Meg: I mean, eventually we got Melrose Place, but that was in the '90s, right?

[34:15] Jessica: These begat the real. It was like Spelling was the king. And then he had a second wave in the '90s and he just dominated. He owned Fox, basically.

[34:26] Meg: I would watch all Dallas.

[34:28] Jessica: Party of Five. All of those.

[34:30] Meg: Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. No, I love Party of Five.

[34:32] Jessica: There's more. Also from the '80s from 1980, Secrets of Midland Heights. Never heard of it. In 1983, one of the early shows on superstation TBS out of Atlanta. Ted Turner, The Catlins. And 1985, a spin off that was only two years, 49 episodes. And it went off the air the day before my 17th birthday. The Colbys.

[35:02] Meg: Do I remember that? I'm not sure. I could lie and say yes, but maybe I'm just lying to myselg.

[35:07] Jessica: Ok and here are two you definitely don't know. And if you do, do I am going to.

[35:11] Meg: I get something special?

[35:12] Jessica: Yes, you're going to get a prize. I don't know what the prize is, but you're going to get a prize.

[35:15] Meg: I hope I know.

[35:16] Jessica: Debuting in 1983, July, and ending in August 1983, with a total of six episodes. The Hamptons.

[35:26] Meg: No, obviously not.

[35:28] Jessica: And 22 epidsodes.

[35:29] Meg: I would remember that.

[35:30] Jessica: Yes. And 22 episodes. October 2, 1983 to May 12, 1984, on NBC. The Yellow Rose. Texas? Dallas. Like they're all trying to get in on. And there was another one that I don't think I mentioned in 1983 on NBC. Bare Essence.

[35:50] Meg: Oh, perfume.

[35:51] Jessica: Yes. Correct.

[35:53] Meg: Obviously.

[35:53] Jessica: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[35:54] Meg: I'm a good target audience.

[35:55] Jessica: No, you're very good. And so Bare Essence. Morgan Fairchild was a ubiquitous. Another one from General Hospital migrating her way into primetime, Genie Francis.

[36:09] Meg: Oh, yeah.

[36:10] Jessica: So Bare Essence had Genie Francis, Ian McShane and Jonathan Frakes, who wound up on Star Trek: The Next Generation. The guy with a beard. I know neither of us give a shit about it, but anyway, he, big deal guy. It was about the efforts of Tyger Hayes. Tyger with a Y. Hayes also with a Y. That's Genie Francis, who wants to succeed in and this is so '80s the business world. Oh yeah. So she wants to be in business. I love that. As a career.

[36:48] Meg: Well, I'm.

[36:48] Jessica: She's got a blazer. Yeah, that's right. I'm a business woman. It's like. It's like Romy and Michele's High School Reunion. We are business women. We invented Post Its. So she wants to be a business woman and she decides to get into perfumes. This did not last long, this particular show, as I've already said. But there's a description of it in the synopsis that I found which I think needs to be read. And there are a couple of lines like this and synopses that I just need to share because the world is grim and if we can have these lines rattling in our heads, it's a better place. There's a guy named Marcus. His wife is named Muffin. Muffin wants to undermine Tiyger's success. It is later revealed that Muffin had Tyger's husband killed when she had someone sabotage his car. Ava eventually seduces and marries Haddon. Tyger's mother, Lady Bobby Rowan, falls in love with a Greek millionaire, Nico Theopolis, played by Ian McShane. Just saying. Let's set the tone. What we see from this is cast of characters. People who really go on to have bigger careers. They have a lot of money and vague occupations. So we move on to Berrenger's, which is what I started with. And I found out that Berrenger's the model for it was Barneys New York.

[38:18] Meg: Oh, the store.

[38:19] Jessica: Yes. Yes. So this was a show about a department store. A department store.

[38:24] Meg: That's a good idea. Yes.

[38:26] Jessica: Barneys RIP. Yeah, very sad. So there's a devious patriarch and there's an unhappy socialite played by Andrea Marcovici, also someone who goes on to massive career.

[38:39] Meg: She was the sister of my mother's former boyfriend.

[38:42] Jessica: Really?

[38:43] Meg: Yes.

[38:44] Jessica: Get out. Who knew facts. And the daughter of Mr. Berrenger is Barbara Berrenger. The names are great. She is a problematic woman because she's a party girl and a divorcee and she's got to prove herself to her daddy. Yes. So would we watch this? Sure, why not? Well, then we have to move on to the one of the King Kongs. If it's not King Kong, it's Godzilla. Dynasty. Dynasty. You did not watch.

[39:12] Meg: I didn't, but I remember they pushed each other in pools and stuff.

[39:16] Jessica: Correct. And it was an Aaron Spelling creation. This is the platform for the Carringtons and the Colbys. Now, whatever the plot was, and we'll get a quick moment of it, this entire show was about Linda Evans and Joan Collins slapping each other.

[39:33] Meg: Right.

[39:34] Jessica: And before they slap each other, taking off an earring to pick up the phone.

[39:38] Meg: Love it.

[39:39] Jessica: Yes. Do you remember this? These were like these sort of. I don't know if they invented them, but these iconic bitch female characters, which must be like, you know, inspired by Barbara Stanwyck, you know, and that sort of.

[39:51] Meg: Joan Crawford.

[39:52] Jessica: Joan Crawford. All of those. You know, no one really, like, everyone loved it, and it was so insane. But I never heard this quote before, and it made me just love the creators of these shows more, because these shows come out and you're just like, well, that's nuts. And, you know, or it's garbage. Why would I watch that? And you don't think about, like, well, what are the creators thinking? Well, here's a little insight into Dynasty. And by the way, Dynasty covered a lot of tough issues like race and abortion, stuff like that. But that pales in comparison to the slapping. Producer Douglas Cramer said, "we walk a fine line just this side of camp." Douglas, I would say you crossed right over. You vaulted over that line.

[40:36] Meg: You kind of defined it.

[40:37] Jessica: "Careful calculations were made. We sense that while it might be wonderful for Krystle and Alexis to have a cat fight in a koi pond, it would be inappropriate for Joan to smack Linda with a koi." Oh, my God, Are you kidding? So I want to see the shows that they didn't make. I want to see, like, oh, well, we held ourselves back. Yes. If you could pick a fish up and smack someone with it, I'm going to start watching your show. I do believe that Dynasty was also sort of vaguely business, but I might be wrong about that. I'm sure someone is going to write in, but I always thought Dynasty was just like the endless shuffling of their money back and forth.

[41:22] Meg: I couldn't tell you. I never watched it.

[41:24] Jessica: Well, Morgan Fairchild is going to take us right into our next show, which is Falcon Crest. You did not watch that one either.

[41:31] Meg: Watch.

[41:31] Jessica: So I at least was aware of Falcon Crest. I don't know what it was on after or before that I was watching, but I was aware of it. You know, Aaron Spelling was the king of getting great actors from the '30s, '40s and '50s back on their feet. This is not an Aaron Spelling show. However, Falcon Crest, which was about the wine industry. So they had a vineyard.

[41:55] Meg: Excellent.

[41:56] Jessica: The matriarch was Jane Wyman. Oh, wow. Now what? Do you remember Jane Wyman's fame along with being an actress of great renown?

[42:06] Meg: She wasn't Leave it to Beaver. Who was she?

[42:09] Jessica: Well, she was Ronald Reagan's first wife.

[42:11] Meg: That's right. Yes, she sure was.

[42:14] Jessica: Yes. So good for her. And I think that Nancy stole, Nancy was also like a two bit actress. And Nancy Reagan, eventually Reagan stole Ronnie from Jane Wyman. Food for thought. So Jane Wyman was no stranger to drama and politics. Also on that show was one of my all time favorite celebrities from the '80s. We've talked on this show about people who are famous for being famous. And you're kind of like in the '80s there were many, many actors who were on these shows who were terrible actors. Like they were truly bad, but they looked good. So they kept on getting work. And in my mind, the king of them all was Lorenzo Lamas.

[42:56] Meg: Okay.

[42:57] Jessica: Do you remember Lorenzo Lamas? I mean, visually, that's my point.

[43:01] Meg: I guess so.

[43:02] Jessica: That's exactly my point. He was this unbelievable hunk. And do you know who his dad was?

[43:08] Meg: No.

[43:09] Jessica: Do you remember on SNL that Billy Crystal would do a skit about you look marvelous. That was a joke about Fernando Lamas, who was Lorenzo Lamas's dad. So part of this whole walk through nighttime soaps is also this is a very small pool of people being deployed in all of this. As if that wasn't enough for Morgan Fairchild, she now shows up on Flamingo Road.

[43:39] Meg: That's where I remember her.

[43:42] Jessica: Now Flamingo Road. You'd think maybe it's in Miami.

[43:46] Meg: Yeah, I guess I sort of figured it.

[43:47] Jessica: And it's like the hotel business as these writers are searching for, like, what's the next random business? Because we can't all just be in business. They run a paper mill.

[43:59] Meg: A paper mill.

[44:00] Jessica: A paper mill. What's that about?

[44:02] Meg: Weird.

[44:02] Jessica: Yes. It's not a newspaper.

[44:04] Meg: A paper mill making paper. Where are they? They've got to be in Florida.

[44:09] Jessica: They are. Okay, they are in Florida. But Florida was not known as a real paper mill town. That was more of a Massachusetts thing. Interestingly.

[44:18] Meg: I know, but maybe we don't know.

[44:20] Jessica: Interestingly, it was. It was a Massachusetts thing. This paper mill was in Florida, but it was in Truro, Florida, which is.

[44:28] Meg: Instead of Truro, Massachusetts.

[44:30] Jessica: Exactly. And we should have gotten behind it because this is one of the few shows that was developed by a woman. This was really a man's world.

[44:38] Meg: I feel like I got behind it.

[44:40] Jessica: I think you did. I'm just saying at the time, I wish. I wish we could have given Rita Lakin some support because that would have been really nice. Interesting. Also, like Peyton Place, this was based on a movie that was based on a book. And the movie starred Joan Crawford.

[44:57] Meg: Oh, my gosh. Full circle.

[44:58] Jessica: Exactly. So we're getting the vibe here. And my final entry for today might be one of my absolute favorites because it's so misguided. Now, this is Glitter. On this show to begin with were Arte Johnson, who was famous for Laugh-In

[45:16] Meg: Right.

[45:17] Jessica: Remember, you want a Walmetto. Arte Johnson, who was a comedic actor. So who knows what he was doing there other than getting a new lease on life. Tracy Nelson, who was on Square Pegs.

[45:27] Meg: Sure.

[45:28] Jessica: And David Birney, husband of Meredith Baxter Birney before she came out. This was produced by Aaron Spelling and it was one of his duds. It tried to combine journalism and business politics.

[45:44] Meg: Why was it called Glitter? Was it in D.C.

[45:45] Jessica: Because it was the glamorous life of the rich and famous. It is about magazine and the glamorous people who they covered in the magazine. I'm putting this out there because, number one, it amused me enormously. It was not my scene, never was. And now I think I'm into it. I think I need to find some of these and get right back into my most camp sensibility.

[46:14] Meg: I will tell you, I will watch Dallas from the first episode till the last, gleefully.

[46:21] Jessica: Well, maybe we can have a Dallas date.

[46:22] Meg: Remember the pilot for Dallas?

[46:25] Jessica: No way.

[46:25] Meg: Extraordinary. Tell me, for one thing, Lucy and Ray, who was the farmhand?

[46:32] Jessica: Are you already? You got me in. Lucy and Ray, the farmhand. It's so moronic.

[46:38] Meg: Are having sex in the hay bin in the barn. That's how the whole show opens. And trust me, Lucy's daddy is not happy about it.

[46:46] Jessica: Is that JR?

[46:47] Meg: No, someone else. Yeah. Who is Lucy's dad?

[46:51] Jessica: So I think I'm ready to appreciate them on a level that I. My. My youthful snobbery. I don't think I could have ever gotten into it. I was too busy. Like, it's addictive. I know, I know. Maybe I was just trying to save myself. But so now I'm kind of into it. And I love that my journey into this heart of darkness was Morgan Fairchild. Morgan Fairchild is like Cher. You know, people used to say about Cher after a nuclear blast, the only thing that's going to survive are the roaches and Cher. I feel like Morgan Fairchild has to get on that list. I don't know who her surgeon is, but she's looking very good still. Like Jane Seymour, another ubiquitous beauty. I just was, you know, in my thinking about Chandler, Matthew Perry, how he affected us. And also he was part of a legacy. He was part of a legacy of TV and improbable circumstances that made us happy.

[48:03] Meg: Two things. Morgan Fairchild was on Dallas, which is very exciting. I mean, we have to watch Dallas now.

[48:09] Jessica: I'm convinced that she was on every single one of them as a guest, like rotating through. If she wasn't in the cast.

[48:15] Meg: Isn't this wonderful, though? Because you're. You love Morgan Fairchild. And if you start watching Dallas, which is, I'm very invested in you doing now for some reason, then you will have your moment of Morgan Fairchild, which will be.

[48:26] Jessica: And you know, I'm spending a lot of time in Dallas these days, so maybe, maybe that's, you know.

[48:38] Meg: Nice. What the hell?

[48:40] Jessica: I just pulled that out for you.

[48:43] Meg: And Kathleen Turner played Chandler Bing's father.

[48:49] Jessica: Good on her for taking that role.

[48:51] Meg: Good on all of them.

[48:53] Jessica: Seriously.

[48:53] Meg: God bless. So what is our, what's our tie in?

[48:59] Jessica: It's, it's '80s actors.

[49:01] Meg: We've talked a lot about '80s actors today.

[49:04] Jessica: Yeah.

[49:04] Meg: There might not be anything more profound than that. Except what you said earlier, which is just the place that they hold in our heart.

[49:11] Jessica: That was actually really nice the way you said that.

[49:12] Meg: Okay.

[49:13] Jessica: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's it. That's our tie in.

[49:16] Meg: That's our tie in. And not to make it self serving at this very touching moment, but like, please, guys, write us reviews.

[49:24] Jessica: Like, I want a birthday present.

[49:26] Meg: I want more reviews on Apple podcasts. If you care, you'll write in.

[49:33] Jessica: Oh, wow. If you care. That's like Feed the Children level of feed the cast, feed the cat, feed Meg.