[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking The 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City,  where we still live!  

[00:27] Meg: And where we podcast about New York city in the 80s! I do rip from the headlines…

[00:33] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: Jessica, have you been watching American Horror Story? My guess is not.

[00:39] Jessica: I never do. And I don't like Ryan Murphy, for the record.

[00:41] Meg: Well, guess what the theme is right now? 

Jessica: The 80s!

Meg: In New York City!

[00:47] Jessica: Oh, now I have to watch it.

[00:49] Meg: And some of the characters that we've discussed are being featured in his – you know, fictional, but based in a lot of reality – show.

[00:58] Jessica: Hmm. Interesting.

[01:02] Meg: Guess who. Off the top of your head.

[01:04] Jessica: von Bülow. 

[01:06] Meg: Oh, yeah, no, but, like, kind of related. Crispo.

[01:10] Jessica: Oh, interesting. Yes.

[01:12] Meg: There is, like, the main character is totally Crispo. Andrew Crispo.

[01:16] Jessica: That’s… Cuckoo crazy.

[01:18] Meg: And Klaus Nomi. There's a character who is dressed like Klaus Nomi.

[01:23] Jessica: Interesting.

[01:24] Meg: I don't think they have used his actual name, but he would be a really interesting person to go into depth on. On the podcast.

[01:32] Jessica: Yes! Yeeees!

Meg: Sure! 

Jessica: Ryan Murphy.

[01:35] Meg: You ready to get started?

[01:37] Jessica: No, I still have to stew on… 

Meg: On Ryan Murphy?

Jessica: (laughing) No, I'm fine! Let's begin.

[01:53] Meg: My engagement question is about TV sitcoms in the 80s that were based in New York. Did you have a favorite? What comes to mind?

[02:02] Jessica: Well, there was DIFF’RENT STROKES.

[02:03] Meg: There was. You know, it was weird. It wasn't different strokes. It was diff’rent.

[02:09] Jessica: Different with the – 

[02:09] Meg: What's up with that?

[02:10] Jessica: Yeah, I think it was supposed to be, like, urban.

[02:13] Meg: My God, that's offensive.

[02:14] Jessica: Yessss.

[02:15] Meg: Okay. Anything else?

[02:18] Jessica: Kate and Allie.

[02:19] Meg: Ooh, nice. I like that one.

[02:20] Jessica: I like Kate and Allie. Sitcoms… I don't know.

[02:24] Meg: BOSOM BUDDIES.

[02:25] Jessica: Oh, well, I mean, LAVERNE & SHIRLEY.

[02:29] Meg: Right. But that wasn't 80s.

[02:31] Jessica: It was! It was. It was in the early 80s as well.

[02:32] Meg: And it wasn't based in New York. It was Milwaukee.

[02:35] Jessica: Oh fuuuuuudge.

[02:36] Meg: That was the whole point.

[02:38] Jessica: I forgot. All that I could think of was their shitty apartment. I'm like, “That's gotta be New York!”.

[02:45] Meg: TAXI?

[02:46] Jessica: TAXI! Of course. Yes, yes.

[02:49] Meg: And THE JEFFERSONS?

[02:51] Jessica: Yes. All good. It's – Look, it's been a long day. I’m a little fried…

[02:55] Meg: Oh, no, no. I don't mean to quiz you. I just wanted to put you in a happy place.

[02:58] Jessica: I love – Yes. They're all good. Yes!

[03:01] Meg: Good. Okay.

[03:02] Jessica: Yes. Oh, you know what was – Oh, no, that was in Chicago. Never mind. Forget it. I'm – I'm not doing well.

[03:09] Meg: Ok! Engagement is over. I will take over.

[03:10] Jessica: Thank God. Thank God. Okay.

[03:13] Meg: But I hope I put you in a somewhat happy place –

[03:15] Jessica: You did.

[03:16] Meg: ‘Cause guess what? It's not a happy story.

[03:18] Jessica: I am absolutely shocked.

[03:21] Meg: My sources are The New Yorker, an episode of 20/20, and The Surgeon's Wife by Kieran Crowley. Our story today begins in Las Vegas in 1995. So a little off brand, but don't worry, we're going to get – we’re gonna get where we're going.

[03:41] Jessica: Okay.

[03:42] Meg: Three women, all of whom had dated Dr. Robert Bierenbaum, got together to compare notes at The Mayflower, which was an Asian fusion restaurant in Vegas. On each of his first dates with all three, Dr. Bierenbaum had been forthcoming about his attributes. He was a plastic surgeon. He spoke 11 languages. He was a classical guitarist. He flew his own plane. He was an expert skier.

[04:10] Jessica: Was he the Tinder Swindler?

[04:12] Meg: A gourmet chef!

[04:14] Jessica: Hmm.

[04:15] Meg: He regularly flew to Mexico to correct the cleft palates of destitute children free of charge. He was Jewish, childless, and very eager to get married. What's the catch? First of all, all three women had noticed Bob had some anger issues.

[04:35] Jessica: (laughing) Okay, I was wai – My face. I know that my facial expression… I was in a rigor, a rictus of anticipation. “What's it gonna be?”. All right.

[04:47] Meg: (whispering) Anger.

Jessica: (whispering) Anger.

Meg: Small things would set him off.

[04:50] Jessica: Like anger that leads to murrrrrder most foul!

[04:56] Meg: One girlfriend accidentally broke a glass, and he lost it on her, yelling about how it was part of a set and irreplaceable. Another said he was always agitated. He could never just sit still to read the paper or watch tv. The third told of how at her parents’ home, he'd announced to her father, the man of the house, that he, Bob, would run Seder. So this woman's mother was convinced he was a sociopath. He accused – (laughing) The look on your face! That mother, too, is a riot in this article. She's like “And he said he was a gourmet chef – His paella was disgusting!”

[05:36] Jessica: See, I love this woman. The minute that you said, “And she said he was a sociopath because he tried to take over Seder,” I'm like, “She's right. Her name is Rhonda. She is from Syosset. And Rhonda's right. That's it.”

[05:52] Meg: He accused one of the women of giving him syphilis. He had a weird rash on his hands, and he shoved them in her face and accused her of infidelity. He later had to apologize for that.

[06:06] Jessica: Did he give her syphilis?

[06:08] Meg: It was eczema.

Jessica: (laughing) Huh?!

Meg: The receptionist at his office told one of the women that his female staff called him a tyrant. He was always cool and relaxed around his Male colleagues. But the women of his office were told they'd be fired if they touched the mail or accepted a subpoena.

[06:33] Jessica: Oh. Hmm. That's a – That's a red flag right there.

[06:38] Meg: Yeah. The most damning story was that his first wife had disappeared 10 years ago.

[06:46] Jessica: Disappearing spouses tend to be… Okay, now we're at red flag number five, I think.

[06:52] Meg: Well, we'll discuss at the end about the red flags in this case. Back in 1985, when he lived in New York, he said he had a fight with his wife, and she had stormed out of the apartment without her keys or purse, wearing a halter top and shorts, and had never returned.

[07:11] Jessica: Hmm. Well, that's a mystery, isn't it? What happened to her? Did he call Robert Durst for instructions?

[07:18] Meg: So many similarities with the Durst. Her family thought he'd killed her. But he'd never been arrested and had moved to Las Vegas. Second Chance City. The three former girlfriends who were having lunch, they called themselves “The Harrietts,” after Harriet The Spy.

[07:34] Jessica: I love them.

[07:35] Meg: And they would meet periodically to share new rumors they were hearing about Dr. Bob Bierenbaum.

[07:40] Jessica: So they didn't have any contact with him anymore? This was just heard around town?

[07:45] Meg: Exactly.

[07:46] Jessica: Okay. I love these three. They're fantastic.

[07:49] Meg: It's amazing, right? And they would call what they named “torso” meetings. Now, why did they call them torso meetings, you might ask?

[07:59] Jessica: I'm terrified.

[08:00] Meg: Because a woman's torso had been recovered off of Staten Island, and the torso had enough similarity to

Gail Katz-Bierenbaum – the missing wife – that her family buried it with her tombstone. Her family did not invite Bob to the funeral. See, Gail's family never really liked him, in spite of all those attributes. Really?

[08:25] Jessica: (sarcastically) His accomplishments were almost unreal.

[08:31] Meg: He and Gail met in the early 80s when he was a medical student and she was working odd jobs in Manhattan. She'd grown up on Long Island. Bob was from New Jersey. Both were from stable, middle-class families. According to Gail's sister Alayne, quote, “Bob looks perfect on paper until you meet him and see that he's a social moron.”

[08:53] Jessica: I love!

[08:54] Meg: Alayne went on a bizarre double date with them at a sushi restaurant. Bob kept shoving food in Gail's mouth with chopsticks and then tried to do the same with Alayne, to her horror.

[09:10] Jessica: So he was just stabbing at her face with raw fish?

[09:14] Meg: This woman who barely knows him, like, what are you doing?

[09:18] Jessica: Boundaries, Bob, boundaries!

[09:20] Meg: One day, Gail called Alayne, sobbing. Bob had tried to drown her cat in the toilet because he said Gail was “neglecting” him. When Alayne told her sister she had to break up with him. Gail said, quote, “No, no, no, Alayne, we're going to get rid of the cat, and then everything's going to be fine, because he's going to believe that I love him.”

[09:45] Jessica: Gail. Oh, Gail. I mean, timeout. The number of times that we have heard that already on this podcast is so bizarre.

[09:55] Meg: “I'll fix him.” Or “He needs me.”

[09:58] Jessica: Yeah, it’s like, hi, he tried to chop your head off. “No, no, it's fine.” Whaaat?

[10:05] Jessica: It's a lot. It's a lot. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I just had a moment.

[10:10] Meg: And in 1982, they were married. It didn't take long for things to disintegrate. Fourteen months after their wedding, Bob came home unexpectedly and caught Gail smoking something he forbade. He jumped over the couch, tackled her, and choked her until she passed out. She reported the incident to the local police, but nothing ever came of it.

[10:33] Jessica: NYPD consistently comes off poorly on this podcast, unfortunately.

[10:38] Meg: Yeah. And there were other things that were upsetting to Gail. He worked obsessively, had strict rules about her weight and hair and how she dressed. Her sister noticed how she wasn't allowed to do anything without Bob's approval. She wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom. Gail would go to turn on a light, and he would grab her hand and then turn it on himself. There's something about that story that just, like, really hit me. I'm like, can you imagine going to just do something and someone stopping you and then doing it? That – I would lose it right there and then. Maybe that's just me.

[11:13] Jessica: No, no. I just – like, I feel like I'm in a horror movie, and I want to stand up in the middle of the theater and scream, “No, Gail! Gail, go back! Get out of the house!”

[11:25] Meg: Yeah, get out of the house. And honestly, her friends and her sister were all saying that.

[11:31] Jessica: Again, shades of Kathie Durst.

[11:33] Meg: Yeah. He would insist she sit on his lap if they were at a restaurant.

[11:39] Jessica: Ew! What?

[11:39] Meg: At a restaurant!

[11:40] Jessica: Like a – like a ventriloquist dummy?

[11:42] Meg: Exactly.

[11:43] Jessica: As she was eating?

[11:44] Meg: Yes! As he was eating!

[11:45] Jessica: Or after the – after the meal?

[11:47] Meg: As both of them were eating.

[11:49] Jessica: Ew.

[11:49] Meg: It's so creepy and weird and uncomfortable and just unthinkable.

[11:56] Jessica: Ew.

[11:57] Meg: Gail gradually grew sick of it all and insisted they go to a therapist, Dr. Michael Stone. After five sessions, Dr. Stone encouraged Gail to leave Bob for the sake of her own safety. He went so far as to get her to sign a letter saying he had warned her that she was in danger. Quote, “If I do not heed this advice, I must accept the consequences, including the possibility of personal injury or death at the hands of my husband, and absolve Dr. Stone of responsibility for any such eventuality.” Thanks, Dr. Stone, for all of your help.

[12:35] Jessica: No! I don't think Dr. Stone did anything wrong.

Meg: I don’t know…

Jessica: I think he told her and it was clear to him. I mean, there's no shortage –

[12:44] Meg: Did he call the police? If he thought she was in danger, he's allowed to call the police.

Jessica: Is he?

Meg: Yes, yes. That's when you're allowed to do it, if you're a psychiatrist.

[12:52] Jessica: Really? I thought that's if you are going to cause others harm.

[12:57] Meg: Doesn't she count? He was – he was her –

[12:59] Jessica: No, no, no.

[13:00] Meg: He was his therapist too! That’s how he knew.

[13:03] Jessica: Oh! Oh. That's the issue here, is that he didn't make Bob promise anything. He made – he made.

Meg: Yes! And he didn’t call the police.

Jessica: Well, if he's saying Bob is a frickin, you know, psychopath, the likelihood that Bob was going to sign off on “I am a psychopath.” was probably pretty low.

[13:21] Meg: Sure. But as you point out, she was supposed to do something about it, not Bob. And also, Michael Stone wasn't supposed to call the police and say, “I just met with a couple in five sessions. I'll tell ya, that guy's gonna kill her.”

[13:34] Jessica: I – I don't know what the doctor-patient rules are.

[13:39] Meg: I'm telling you.

[13:40] Jessica: Oh, okay.

[13:41] Meg: If he thinks that he's going to cause harm, he is allowed to report it.

[13:45] Jessica: All right well then…

Meg: That is my understanding.

Jessica: If that is the case, then Dr. Michael Stone fucked uuup.

[13:54] Meg: But Gail wasn't overly concerned. And while she had been seeing another man and was clearly beginning the process of breaking free from the marriage, she remained in their Upper East Side apartment at 185 East 85th street, between 3rd and Lexington. Do you know that building?

[14:12] Jessica: Hold on a minute. Is that one of the TV shows?

Meg: Yes!

Jessica: Okay. 85th Street… Is that –

[14:18] Meg: What would it be?

[14:19] Jessica: Is that The Jeffersons?  

Meg: Yes!

Jessica: Okay.

[14:22] Meg: Okay. And then on July 7, 1985, she disappeared. Bob went to his nephew's birthday party in New Jersey that afternoon without Gail, and told everyone, including her family and the police, that she'd stormed off after a fight they had that morning again, leaving her purse… because that's a thing. Bob refused to talk to police after a brief initial interview. And the Bierenbaums, Bob's family, hinted that Gail was… You can guess, I'm sure.

Jessica:  That she was a slut?

[14:56] Jessica: She was a horrible person. She was… She brought it on… I don't know. What?

[15:00] Meg: Suicidal and was a victim of a botched drug deal.

[15:04] Jessica: Oh, I’m supposed to come up with that. That's very…

[15:08] Meg: It's on the list!

[15:09] Jessica: That’s very specific.

[15:10] Meg: Those are two of the things that Bob Durst said about Kathy.

[15:14] Jessica: Botched drug deal? Yeah.

[15:16] Meg: That she was like a drug addict and that probably she'd run into some nasty people because of her drug habit.

[15:23] Jessica: Oh, my God. By the way, my use of the word “slut” is to get into the headspace of 1985. It's not a word that I'm using today.

[15:31] Meg: No, certainly not.

[15:32] Jessica: I just. I just have a caveat. I have to put it out there. Continue, please, Meg.

[15:36] Meg: And they probably did, actually, but…

[15:38] Jessica: But, yeah, she's out walking the town in her short shorts and tube top.

[15:41] Meg: Right, it was shorts and halter top. He made it. He was very specific about what she was wearing when she left.

[15:45] Jessica: That's what I'm saying. She's promiscuous.

[15:48] Meg: The conjecture pitted the Katzes against the Bierenbaums. In the meantime, Bob was seen partying at Marrakesh in the Hamptons. And then Detective Andy Rosenzweig discovered Bob had rented a small Cessna 172N from a field in Caldwell, New Jersey, for two hours on July 7, 1983.

[16:13] Jessica: Was this a body dump?

Meg: Yes. Like –  

Jessica: You idiot. Yes. Okay.

[16:20] Meg: You remember that's one of his attributes?

[16:22] Jessica: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That he flies.

[16:25] Meg: Yes. Not only had he not told police about this, but he tried to doctor the flight records.

[16:32] Jessica: Oh, no, you don't, Bob. Big mistake.

[16:36] Meg: But without a body, the evidence was all circumstantial.

[16:41] Jessica: Until the torso?

[16:42] Meg: Well, no, because actually, they didn't have DNA then, so they couldn't definitively say the torso was Gail.

[16:49] Jessica: Do you know how many times we've used the word “torso” on this podcast?

[16:53] Meg: You're right. Oh my gosh.

[16:54] Jessica: Torso is a word that I have to say I generally shy away from. But, yeah, it's really – I don't know, it's chilling. Go ahead. (laughing) I'm sorry I keep interrupting you.

[17:06] Meg: It wasn't before long that Bob moved to Vegas. For years, Alayne left messages on his answering machine, saying…

[17:13] Jessica: “I know you killed my sister.”

[17:18] Meg: I knew you would do that justice.

[17:20] Jessica: (laughing) I'm filled with hatred.

[17:22] Meg: But you love Alayne.

[17:23] Jessica: I do love Alayne. I love the whole. All the women in here are outstanding.

[17:30] Meg: Ten years later, at about the time that the Harriet's were meeting, Detective Rosenzweig was preparing to retire, but didn't want to do so without getting to the bottom of Gail Katz's disappearance. It had plagued him all these years. So he decided to re-interview everyone from the case. One of Bob's former girlfriends from his New York days said she was with him one night when he got a phone call from Port Authority police saying they thought they'd found Gail. How exciting. Right?

[18:00] Jessica: Mmm.

[18:00] Meg: He told them, “I doubt it's Gail.” and hung up.

[18:05] Jessica: Oh, Bob, what a schmuck!

[18:10] Meg: But also, like, you're not so good at this.

[18:13] Jessica: No, that's what I'm saying. He's a schmuck. He's an idiot. He's a terrible criminal. It was bound to catch up with him.

[18:20] Meg: Well, it took long enough.

[18:22] Jessica: Yes, but, you know, thanks to Rosenzweig.

[18:25] Meg: The new DA found the circumstantial evidence compelling. And ultimately, Bob was indicted for Gail's murder in 2000.

[18:33] Jessica: Really?

[18:34] Meg: Uh-huh. By this time, he was married, with a child and living in South Dakota.

[18:39] Jessica: South Dakota?

[18:41] Meg: Yeah, actually. Remember the Harriet's and all the rumors that were swirling in Vegas?

[18:45] Jessica: Sure.

[18:46] Meg: He didn't feel so comfy there anymore.

[18:48] Jessica: Yes, but of all places, South Dakota?

[18:51] Meg: Well, maybe he was just trying to get off the map.

[18:53] Jessica: That is just bananas.

[18:56] Meg: It was a tough case. No forensics, no eyewitnesses, entirely circumstantial. Because now we do have DNA. And guess what?

Jessica: Torso?

Meg: Torso was not Gail. Torso was somebody else.

Jessica: Fuck.

Meg: But also, somebody else.

[19:16] Jessica: I know, I know. Did they figure out who it was? Was there a DNA record?

[19:21] Meg: No, it's just another dead female.

[19:24] Jessica: I mean, the fricking east river is filled with torsos. I mean, not to be too crass.

[19:30] Meg: But Bob was found guilty.

[19:33] Jessica: Really?

[19:34] Meg: And sentenced to 20 years to life. For two decades after his incarceration, he maintained his innocence. And then in December 2020, at his parole hearing, he finally said, quote, “I wanted her to stop yelling at me and I attacked her. I strangled her. I went flying. I opened the door and then took her body out of the airplane over the ocean.” He also told the parole board that he killed her because he was, quote, “immature” and, quote, “didn't understand how to deal with his anger.” He's currently incarcerated at Sing Sing. I mean, ‘immature’, ‘didn't understand how to deal’ with his anger. I mean, that's something like – It feels like something that you would deal with with like a third grader.

[20:17] Jessica: There are many, many problems with Bob. And the thing that immediately springs to my mind is why was Bob so angry? Did something happen in the Bierenbaum home? I'm dying to know. Did anything else get unearthed?

[20:33] Meg: You know what? To me, he seems like a classic narcissist.

[20:37] Jessica: Well, he seems like a pretty much standard variety psychopath.

[20:41] Meg: Had to be controlling. Had to control the people around him.

[20:45] Jessica: No empathy. Yes. Lack of empathy. I'm just going to keep banging away at that drum.

[20:49] Meg: The same evidence that they had at the time of the crime wasn't good enough, was good enough 10 years later or 15 years later because just the system wasn't.

[21:02] Jessica: Well, it's also. Social mores changed.

[21:04] Meg: Social mores changed, possibly the system – I don't know. But the fact is, like, domestic violence was just not acknowledged in any way.

[21:13] Jessica: Well, you're talking about the value of a human life.

[21:16] Meg: Evidence should be evidence.

[21:18] Jessica: Right, but this is circumstantial evidence. So there's no body. Right?

[21:24] Meg: Right. When you've got enough circumstantial evidence, it ends up being evidence, is it not?

[21:29] Jessica: Okay, let's –I'm going to answer the question by giving you another case. My point is Lizzie Borden clearly killed her family, her parents. But she was let off because there was no way that a woman could have wielded an ax and killed her parents. But she did. It's obvious now, but at the time, the evidence was exactly the same. But a woman doing something like that? It would never happen. So your question about are social mores part of – or you know.

[22:04] Meg: No, I think it's. I think it's a system. Like that if you're smart enough, you can get away with it. If you're able to get rid of a body, then you're never going to be…

[22:12] Jessica: I'm saying these are jury trials.

[22:15] Meg: Brought to trial. Sometimes they're judge trials. They weren't even indicted. These men in the 80s who were killing their wives. There are all these guys who were never even indicted.

[22:25] Jessica: Okay, I'm just talking about Bob. It was bad!

[22:29] Meg: No, there's no reason that we need to disagree about that.

[22:32] Jessica: I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you.

[22:35] Meg: So when I say the system didn't acknowledge that domestic violence existed, that circumstantial evidence – actually, if you look at the big picture, it's pretty clear that this woman is no longer with us. That the evidence didn't change over time, but somehow it became more compelling. 15 years later.

[22:56] Jessica: And I'm saying that – when you really boil down the legal system, it's made up of people.

[23:02] Meg: Exactly.

[23:03] Jessica: People who have perspectives. And when I talk about social mores, that's what I'm saying, is that the perspective of the DA, the perspective of the defense counselor, everybody in the room is different. So, point of view is really – there isn't an empirically correct answer.

[23:25] Meg: But that is exactly what I'm saying, and that the law does say that it is empirical, that evidence is evidence. The evidence was the same.

[23:35] Jessica: You've just cracked the code on the problem with the legal system.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah!

Jessica: Yeah, okay. That is exactly the problem.

[23:42] Meg: Well, it was a big eye opener for me, Jessica. I know it's not some big reveal. It's just so obvious in this case.

[23:52] Jessica: I mean, I think that you have done justice to these other cases. You've done such a thorough job that it always seems incredibly obvious. Like, you know, the guy is –  guy is skulking around like, brandishing a knife and, you know, cackling wildly in the shadows and it’s like, “Couldn't be that guy. That guy looks normal!”

[24:17] Meg: People just don't have enough evidence.

[24:18] Jessica: Exactly. It's like, “Okay, I gotta go home now.” It's - It's - Yes, you're right. It's crazy. I mean, that's why DNA and the Innocence Project was such a revelation and changed…

[24:33] Meg: It changed everything. Really.

[24:34] Jessica: Yes. The way that people were prosecuted changed entirely because DNA is empirical evidence. It's the only thing. And everything else is subjective.

[24:46] Meg: Right. There you go. That's it.

[24:49] Jessica: Phew. We got there.

[24:50] Meg: God damn it.

[24:51] Jessica: Geez.

[24:51] Meg: And in the 80s, did you know that it was - the subjectiveness was so… messed up?

[24:57] Jessica: When I was a teenager? No, of course not. How? How could we? We didn't even know what our own points of view… When you're a teenager – and I think it's a great question because, you know, how would we have looked at these things?

[25:10] Meg: I think we were sold a bill of goods a little bit. We were told we had it great. And I don't know if we had it great.

[25:18] Jessica: I don't know if that. I think that for me, at least as a teenager, I wouldn't have questioned it. I would have just been like - I might not have said, “I agree that it's the woman's fault and she should be killed for touching the light switch.” But I do think that as a teenager, the system is the system. Unless you're on the wrong side of it and you get - and you grow up really fast. But for us? No! It was the grownups.

[25:46] Meg: You're right. Trust the people in authority

[25:50] Meg: Not to belabor the point, but I just think it's worth noting…

[25:55] Jessica: You're like, “I'm not going to flog this dead horse. Quick, find me a dead horse!”

[25:59] Meg: That it was really easy to kill your wife in the 80s and really easy to get away with it. I think we can draw a direct line between the activity and the justice system.

[26:12] Jessica: I agree with you. That's what I was alluding to earlier with the whole, like, value of a human life thing. Like, we're still debating. I mean, I'm not going to get into the abortion thing, but the value of a woman's life is historically significantly less than most any and everything.

Jessica: Okay. One of the things that we've talked about a lot is restaurants. And funny enough, I was talking to someone who's in LA -  today, who is working on a cookbook - and we were talking about how New York really has always been a culture of entertaining outside of your apartment.

[26:59] Meg: Okay.

[26:59] Jessica: And restaurants are a very, very big thing. Whereas in LA, you know, there's a lot of home entertaining and, you know, having a big ostentatious house or whatever. There's just a lot of home - and because it's nice outside, there's outdoor barbecue activity. Right? So New York has long, long been a restaurant kind of town.

[27:20] Meg: Love it.

[27:21] Jessica: And so we've talked about a couple of restaurants that were really a big deal in the 80s, and among them Odeon, which we talk about a lot. There's Florent in the Meatpacking District. But these places had a natural enemy. The natural enemy of the restaurant in the 80s was the food critic. Ooh.

[27:42] Meg: Ooh, I love this.

[27:45] Jessica: We're gonna talk a little bit about food critics. And - and I'm going to introduce…

[27:51] Meg: Are there even food critics anymore?

[27:54] Jessica: Well, yes, there's - there are… Well, it's different. There are restaurant reviews, but they're not as personal as they were in the 80s.

[28:02] Meg: Yeah, it was personal. And there were, like, celebrity critics.

[28:06] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah! And, you know, they would have costumes and outfits so they wouldn't be…

Meg: Recognized while they ate.

Jessica: Yes, yes. So we're going to talk - we're going to talk about two - and interestingly, they, a lot of them were women. And so we're going to talk about two women who struck fear in the hearts of restaurateurs.

[28:27] Meg: I know at least one.

[28:28] Jessica: And then I'm going to give you a little… a little twist.

[28:31] Meg: Okay?

[28:32] Jessica: Okay. So these restaurants in the 80s, one of the things that I think made it was a perfect storm for critics was that it was the emergence of “nouvelle” cuisine.

[28:43] Meg: Yes.

[28:44] Jessica: And nouvelle cuisine was sort of Frenchified fare. It wasn't a regular plate of food. It was. Everything was a sculpture or, like. And it was notorious…

[28:56] Meg: Right. A visual impact.

[28:57] Jessica: And it was notoriously, like, tiny portions with, like, “This is a Greene pea. It's a very special Greene pea. I hope you really, really pay attention to this one Greene pea that I've put next to this one carrot.”  So it was, you know, also kind of a joke. But alongside that, and as I was reading through these reviews, what also fascinated me was that there were a whole bunch of restaurants that they were viewing that was not that, but it showed that 80s restaurants were serving food that has gone so far out of style. You'll see what I mean in a moment.

[29:36] Meg: Ok, I'm excited.

[29:37] Jessica: But the two big queens of critique at the time were Mimi Sheraton from The New York Times and Gael Greene from The New York magazine. And Gael Greene was more like the sassy, bitchy for-the-people kind of critic. And Mimi Sheraton was extremely highfalutin. So obviously, the first thing I wanted to do to talk about this was to find their reviews to illustrate this point. And Mimi Sheraton lived like, almost to be almost 100. In fact, is she still alive? I think she might still be alive. In fact, I think she is. She's 96 years old. Clearly, she ate the right things. So I found her review. 24 Fifth Avenue, I think is the name of it.

[30:25] Meg: I got married there.

[30:26] Jessica: I know.

[30:27] Meg: So what was the restaurant in the 80s?

[30:28] Jessica: It was 24 Fifth Avenue.

[30:30] Meg: Oh, wow. Okay.

[30:31] Jessica: And she talks about Michel Fitoussi, who's the chef, and she starts the whole review by - by totally slagging him off. Is it being like, “At his last restaurant, he only got one star. He managed to double it.” So she's… She's coming in hot.

[30:50] Meg: Mimi didn't have a good meal.

[30:52] Jessica: She says, in fact, “For those food rated only one star at The Palace in 1981, it is now well worth two. The cuisine, while still largely nouvelle in presentation, has a more classic solidity to its flavor. And there are fewer of the contrived dishes that bewildered the palate and slowed the kitchen to a near standstill. Sauces remain Mr. Fitoussi’s strong point,” and I think it says a lot about, as I said, you know, what were people eating and what did they prioritize. So she writes, “Game birds, such as quail stuffed with veal and grilled venison, have deep and rich flavors, although they are a bit tough. This flaw would be minor if it were not for the cheap, over-flexible steak knives. They make it impossible to eat even the tender parts of the huge, almost raw and sinewy Muscovy duck breast. Pheasant was excellent one night when its cabbage and bacon stuffing had been portioned out with restraint. But on another night, there was more stuffing than two people could eat, and it was extremely salty and somewhat but overripe. Wild white rice flecked with giblets fleshed out fine chewy squab. And at brunch, sage butter brought fresh flavor to carefully grilled calf's liver. Rare as ordered. A sheer bordelaise sauce added richness and subtlety to roseate kidneys.”

[32:24] Meg: My God.

[32:24] Jessica: Right? Doesn't that sound horrible?

[32:26] Meg: It's so rich. I can't stand even hearing it.

[32:28] Jessica: Well, it's so rich. And it's filled with organ meat.

[32:31] Meg: Yeah. And game birds.

[32:33] Jessica: Game birds! Oh, and at one point she says that “The caviar was fine on one occasion, but on another it was mushy and left an after taste not unlike kerosene.”

[32:43] Meg: Oh, my God.

[32:44] Jessica: So Mimi was going in for the kill with her over-flexible steak knife. And in stark contrast to Mimi, there was Gael Greene.

[32:54] Meg: But you really do kind of feel like you had that meal.

[32:58] Jessica: Yes. Yes, you do. Gael Greene was the first restaurant critic for New York magazine.

[33:05] Meg: Okay.

[33:05] Jessica: And was in fact with New York magazine from its inception, and I'm quoting now from her obituary in The Times: “She cast - Gael Greene - cast a knowing, amused eye over her surroundings and shared the pleasures on her plate with the enthusiasm of a born voluptuary.” Quote, “After Gael Greene, the restaurant review would never be the same.” The critic, Robert Sietsema – Okay, someone's… I know Nick is going to call in like, instantly and be like “You moron.” – wrote in the Columbia Journalism Review in 2010. At Lespinasse – another restaurant we should talk about in the not-so-distant future – Ms. Greene rhapsodized over quote, “The layered perfumes of a jumbo sea scallop, wearing a sesame tuile chapeau afloat in a curry scented puddle.” At the Café Chauveron, she raved about “Infant vegetables tasting as if they'd been grown in butter.” This is a rarified world.

Meg: Baby carrots.

Jessica: Yeah, pretty much. And she said very self-effacingly, “I think I gave New Yorkers a new way to think about food.” So these, this is when. This is the food world.

Meg: Wait she just died.

Jessica: Did she just die?

[34:22] Meg: The reason I asked is-

[34:24] Jessica: November 1st. She just died.

[34:25] Meg: She just died. I saw something about her and when you said Gael Greene, I was like, why is she in the news? Is it just a coincidence that you thought to talk about her?

[34:35] Jessica: Yes. Wow, that's so weird. I'm psychic.

[34:39] Meg: I guess so.

[34:41] Jessica: But the thing about this that I found really interesting and I think it's a good illustration of what New York is really about because, you know, people who visit New York are very quick to say, you know, “The people are rude and the,” you know, “and it's expensive and blah, blah, blah.” - which always makes me laugh. I think about the old joke like “The food was terrible and the portions are too small.” You know, New York, one of the reasons I always love it is that there's, even now when it seems like things are really pretty stagnant. I will never say dead. Stagnant. There are layers and layers to unpack if you actually take the time. These women who really set the tone for this competitive restaurateur-ing, you know, like they really made it into a blood sport. They also did really, really good things. And most notably. Was it Gael Greene? I think it was Gael Greene, along with James Beard, started Citymeals on Wheels.

[35:43] Meg: Oh my goodness!

Jessica: Yes.

Meg: And when did that start?

[35:46] Jessica: That was in 1981.

[35:48] Meg: Oh my gosh.

[35:49] Jessica: And Gael Greene had heard about how elderly New Yorkers were getting through the holidays without any family around them and without any food. And while there had been the equivalent of Meals on Wheels that was funded by the government, there had not been a private, privately funded charitable organization to help. So with the help of James Beard, renowned - renowned, revered food critic of the old school, not the taking-out-his-over-flexible-steak-knife-and-going-for-the-jugular – or the kidneys as the case may be – he got all of - with her - but he really probably got - all of the old moneyed white haired ladies to donate.

Meg: Sure did, I bet.

[36:37] Meg: And all these ladies who go to Mortimer's were very eager to donate, I'm sure.

[36:44] Jessica: Exactly. And so they started Citymeals on Wheels.

[36:48] Meg: This is very timely with Thanksgiving coming up.

[36:52] Jessica: Oh, this is a great thing. Also from her obituary, I'm just going to paraphrase it. She was working for the United Press right out of college and she was assigned to go interview or assist with an interview with Elvis Presley. And she went to his hotel room and one thing led to another and she said “The sex wasn't memorable, but the fried egg sandwich afterwards that he ordered was.”

Meg: Oh my God.

Jessica: (continues quote) “And that's how I knew I was going to be a food critic.”

[37:23] Meg: Are you kidding?

[37:24] Jessica: No, no, no. Well, I mean, it's what's in the obituary.

[37:27] Meg: Didn't she also write fiction?

[37:28] Jessica: And three years later, what Citymeals on Wheels inspired was three years later, God's Love We Deliver, which was the first, like Meals on Wheels that specifically catered to people who were ill. And even more specifically, as the AIDS epidemic just exploded, they would bring meals to men who no one else would get near. And it started out with Ganga Stone and her friend on bicycles themselves.

[37:59] Meg: Who's Ganga Stone?

[38:00] Jessica: The woman who started God's Love We Deliver.

[38:03] Meg: And what's her background?

[38:04] Jessica: I'm about to tell you. But it started out with the two of them on bikes with, like, you know, 10 people who they were taking meals to and went on to serve something like a thousand meals a day. So Genga Stone, interestingly, she was a hospice worker to an AIDS patient in 1985. Oh, excuse me. It wasn't three years later. It was four years later. And her roommate was the person who she started all of this with. Ganga herself, Jewish family. Born Ingrid Headley Stone, raised on Long Island. Her family's original name was Stein. She - I assume in her in her youth - went off to India and studied with the Swami Muktananda and took on the name “Ganga” because it was in some way associated with the Ganges River. And she put God's Love We Deliver together with the Gay Men's Health crisis. And interestingly, the organization is called God's Love We Deliver, but there is no religious affiliation at all.

[39:05] Meg: That is interesting.

[39:06] Jessica: So the snottiest, most judgmental women of New York actually started some of the most caring and neighborly work that lives on to this day.

[39:18] Meg: That's wonderful.

[39:19] Jessica: Yay, them.

[39:20] Meg: I feel like we should say something about Thanksgiving and being thankful and grateful and…

[39:25] Jessica: Well, maybe this is our moment, Meg!

[39:28] Meg: What?

[39:28] Jessica: You know.

[39:29] Meg: Oh, is this when we tell everybody?

[39:31] Jessica: Yes, this is it.

[39:32] Meg: (laughing) What we’ve been hiding all these months.

[39:35] Jessica: So. All right, so, Meg, I will begin the process. I will say I am grateful that this year, as it has been for a few years now, that I will be spending Thanksgiving with you.

[39:50] Meg: Yes, you will.

[39:51] Jessica: And you will be spending it with me.

[39:55] Meg: Because the reason why is because in 2019.

Jessica: Yes, in 2019.

Meg: Jessica's mother had recently passed away. And I invited Jessica and her father over for Thanksgiving, and my mother was there. Her partner had recently passed away, and Jessica's father and my mother hit it off.

[40:21] Meg: And then the pandemic happened!

Jessica: And it didn't stop them!

[40:25] Meg: And my mother reached out after the pandemic-

[40:29] Jessica: No, during the pandemic.

[40:30] Meg: During the pandemic?

[40:31] Jessica: One year in.

[40:32] Meg: Okay.

[40:33] Jessica: One year in.

[40:34] Meg: Well, she asked me. I don't know the details. She asked me for your father's number, which I got from you.

[40:41] Jessica: And both of us went, “Oh, my God!”

[40:43] Meg: What is happening?

Jessica: What is this?

Meg: And the next thing we knew, they were an item, and they still are. And it's wonderful, and it kind of makes us (both Jessica and Meg) sisters!

[40:57] Jessica: (in child-like voice) You're my stepsister!

[41:01] Meg: You're right. That is Thanksgiving themed.

[41:03] Jessica: That is. That is our Thanksgiving, and I think it is absolutely adorable. No one needs to know exactly how old our parents are, but it is a wonderful story. You know, don't ever think that love is not right around the corner. It's very sweet. So, yeah, fambly.

[41:24] Meg: I'm kind of beaming right now.

Jessica: I know!

Meg: I didn't have a sister before.

[41:28] Jessica: I haven't had one either. And we've covered this before. We both have older brothers who went to Collegiate, so you're my… you’re… Yes, our lives are strangely parallel, and they've come together in a very bizarre and yet charming way. That's our secret.

[41:44] Meg: Yay.

[41:44] Both: Happy Thanksgiving.

Jessica: I don't know - I don't even know what I'm bringing or making. I don't know what I'm doing.

[41:49] Meg: I'll send you a list.

Meg: So what's our tie in?

[42:05] Jessica: Oh, okay.

[42:07] Meg: Food critics.

[42:08] Jessica: Okay. Wait. Yours was...

[42:10] Meg: God’s Love We deliver.

[42:11] Jessica: The torso. Dead lady. The guy. The guy. Oh. What were his claims? Did he claim to be a chef?

[42:19] Meg: Yes, A gourmet chef.

[42:20] Jessica: Okay.

[42:21] Meg: And remember, the mother of one of the girlfriends was like, “And his paella was disgusting!”

[42:28] Jessica: Yes, exactly. So there you go. There was a - there was food and a food critic in both of these. Ta da.

[42:34] Meg: What kind of review would Gael Greene have given Dr. Robert Bierenbaum?

[42:39] Jessica: She would have lacerated him. It would have been very ugly.

[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking The 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City,  where we still live!  

[00:27] Meg: And where we podcast about New York city in the 80s! I do rip from the headlines…

[00:33] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: Jessica, have you been watching American Horror Story? My guess is not.

[00:39] Jessica: I never do. And I don't like Ryan Murphy, for the record.

[00:41] Meg: Well, guess what the theme is right now? 

Jessica: The 80s!

Meg: In New York City!

[00:47] Jessica: Oh, now I have to watch it.

[00:49] Meg: And some of the characters that we've discussed are being featured in his – you know, fictional, but based in a lot of reality – show.

[00:58] Jessica: Hmm. Interesting.

[01:02] Meg: Guess who. Off the top of your head.

[01:04] Jessica: von Bülow. 

[01:06] Meg: Oh, yeah, no, but, like, kind of related. Crispo.

[01:10] Jessica: Oh, interesting. Yes.

[01:12] Meg: There is, like, the main character is totally Crispo. Andrew Crispo.

[01:16] Jessica: That’s… Cuckoo crazy.

[01:18] Meg: And Klaus Nomi. There's a character who is dressed like Klaus Nomi.

[01:23] Jessica: Interesting.

[01:24] Meg: I don't think they have used his actual name, but he would be a really interesting person to go into depth on. On the podcast.

[01:32] Jessica: Yes! Yeeees!

Meg: Sure! 

Jessica: Ryan Murphy.

[01:35] Meg: You ready to get started?

[01:37] Jessica: No, I still have to stew on… 

Meg: On Ryan Murphy?

Jessica: (laughing) No, I'm fine! Let's begin.

[01:53] Meg: My engagement question is about TV sitcoms in the 80s that were based in New York. Did you have a favorite? What comes to mind?

[02:02] Jessica: Well, there was DIFF’RENT STROKES.

[02:03] Meg: There was. You know, it was weird. It wasn't different strokes. It was diff’rent.

[02:09] Jessica: Different with the – 

[02:09] Meg: What's up with that?

[02:10] Jessica: Yeah, I think it was supposed to be, like, urban.

[02:13] Meg: My God, that's offensive.

[02:14] Jessica: Yessss.

[02:15] Meg: Okay. Anything else?

[02:18] Jessica: Kate and Allie.

[02:19] Meg: Ooh, nice. I like that one.

[02:20] Jessica: I like Kate and Allie. Sitcoms… I don't know.

[02:24] Meg: BOSOM BUDDIES.

[02:25] Jessica: Oh, well, I mean, LAVERNE & SHIRLEY.

[02:29] Meg: Right. But that wasn't 80s.

[02:31] Jessica: It was! It was. It was in the early 80s as well.

[02:32] Meg: And it wasn't based in New York. It was Milwaukee.

[02:35] Jessica: Oh fuuuuuudge.

[02:36] Meg: That was the whole point.

[02:38] Jessica: I forgot. All that I could think of was their shitty apartment. I'm like, “That's gotta be New York!”.

[02:45] Meg: TAXI?

[02:46] Jessica: TAXI! Of course. Yes, yes.

[02:49] Meg: And THE JEFFERSONS?

[02:51] Jessica: Yes. All good. It's – Look, it's been a long day. I’m a little fried…

[02:55] Meg: Oh, no, no. I don't mean to quiz you. I just wanted to put you in a happy place.

[02:58] Jessica: I love – Yes. They're all good. Yes!

[03:01] Meg: Good. Okay.

[03:02] Jessica: Yes. Oh, you know what was – Oh, no, that was in Chicago. Never mind. Forget it. I'm – I'm not doing well.

[03:09] Meg: Ok! Engagement is over. I will take over.

[03:10] Jessica: Thank God. Thank God. Okay.

[03:13] Meg: But I hope I put you in a somewhat happy place –

[03:15] Jessica: You did.

[03:16] Meg: ‘Cause guess what? It's not a happy story.

[03:18] Jessica: I am absolutely shocked.

[03:21] Meg: My sources are The New Yorker, an episode of 20/20, and The Surgeon's Wife by Kieran Crowley. Our story today begins in Las Vegas in 1995. So a little off brand, but don't worry, we're going to get – we’re gonna get where we're going.

[03:41] Jessica: Okay.

[03:42] Meg: Three women, all of whom had dated Dr. Robert Bierenbaum, got together to compare notes at The Mayflower, which was an Asian fusion restaurant in Vegas. On each of his first dates with all three, Dr. Bierenbaum had been forthcoming about his attributes. He was a plastic surgeon. He spoke 11 languages. He was a classical guitarist. He flew his own plane. He was an expert skier.

[04:10] Jessica: Was he the Tinder Swindler?

[04:12] Meg: A gourmet chef!

[04:14] Jessica: Hmm.

[04:15] Meg: He regularly flew to Mexico to correct the cleft palates of destitute children free of charge. He was Jewish, childless, and very eager to get married. What's the catch? First of all, all three women had noticed Bob had some anger issues.

[04:35] Jessica: (laughing) Okay, I was wai – My face. I know that my facial expression… I was in a rigor, a rictus of anticipation. “What's it gonna be?”. All right.

[04:47] Meg: (whispering) Anger.

Jessica: (whispering) Anger.

Meg: Small things would set him off.

[04:50] Jessica: Like anger that leads to murrrrrder most foul!

[04:56] Meg: One girlfriend accidentally broke a glass, and he lost it on her, yelling about how it was part of a set and irreplaceable. Another said he was always agitated. He could never just sit still to read the paper or watch tv. The third told of how at her parents’ home, he'd announced to her father, the man of the house, that he, Bob, would run Seder. So this woman's mother was convinced he was a sociopath. He accused – (laughing) The look on your face! That mother, too, is a riot in this article. She's like “And he said he was a gourmet chef – His paella was disgusting!”

[05:36] Jessica: See, I love this woman. The minute that you said, “And she said he was a sociopath because he tried to take over Seder,” I'm like, “She's right. Her name is Rhonda. She is from Syosset. And Rhonda's right. That's it.”

[05:52] Meg: He accused one of the women of giving him syphilis. He had a weird rash on his hands, and he shoved them in her face and accused her of infidelity. He later had to apologize for that.

[06:06] Jessica: Did he give her syphilis?

[06:08] Meg: It was eczema.

Jessica: (laughing) Huh?!

Meg: The receptionist at his office told one of the women that his female staff called him a tyrant. He was always cool and relaxed around his Male colleagues. But the women of his office were told they'd be fired if they touched the mail or accepted a subpoena.

[06:33] Jessica: Oh. Hmm. That's a – That's a red flag right there.

[06:38] Meg: Yeah. The most damning story was that his first wife had disappeared 10 years ago.

[06:46] Jessica: Disappearing spouses tend to be… Okay, now we're at red flag number five, I think.

[06:52] Meg: Well, we'll discuss at the end about the red flags in this case. Back in 1985, when he lived in New York, he said he had a fight with his wife, and she had stormed out of the apartment without her keys or purse, wearing a halter top and shorts, and had never returned.

[07:11] Jessica: Hmm. Well, that's a mystery, isn't it? What happened to her? Did he call Robert Durst for instructions?

[07:18] Meg: So many similarities with the Durst. Her family thought he'd killed her. But he'd never been arrested and had moved to Las Vegas. Second Chance City. The three former girlfriends who were having lunch, they called themselves “The Harrietts,” after Harriet The Spy.

[07:34] Jessica: I love them.

[07:35] Meg: And they would meet periodically to share new rumors they were hearing about Dr. Bob Bierenbaum.

[07:40] Jessica: So they didn't have any contact with him anymore? This was just heard around town?

[07:45] Meg: Exactly.

[07:46] Jessica: Okay. I love these three. They're fantastic.

[07:49] Meg: It's amazing, right? And they would call what they named “torso” meetings. Now, why did they call them torso meetings, you might ask?

[07:59] Jessica: I'm terrified.

[08:00] Meg: Because a woman's torso had been recovered off of Staten Island, and the torso had enough similarity to

Gail Katz-Bierenbaum – the missing wife – that her family buried it with her tombstone. Her family did not invite Bob to the funeral. See, Gail's family never really liked him, in spite of all those attributes. Really?

[08:25] Jessica: (sarcastically) His accomplishments were almost unreal.

[08:31] Meg: He and Gail met in the early 80s when he was a medical student and she was working odd jobs in Manhattan. She'd grown up on Long Island. Bob was from New Jersey. Both were from stable, middle-class families. According to Gail's sister Alayne, quote, “Bob looks perfect on paper until you meet him and see that he's a social moron.”

[08:53] Jessica: I love!

[08:54] Meg: Alayne went on a bizarre double date with them at a sushi restaurant. Bob kept shoving food in Gail's mouth with chopsticks and then tried to do the same with Alayne, to her horror.

[09:10] Jessica: So he was just stabbing at her face with raw fish?

[09:14] Meg: This woman who barely knows him, like, what are you doing?

[09:18] Jessica: Boundaries, Bob, boundaries!

[09:20] Meg: One day, Gail called Alayne, sobbing. Bob had tried to drown her cat in the toilet because he said Gail was “neglecting” him. When Alayne told her sister she had to break up with him. Gail said, quote, “No, no, no, Alayne, we're going to get rid of the cat, and then everything's going to be fine, because he's going to believe that I love him.”

[09:45] Jessica: Gail. Oh, Gail. I mean, timeout. The number of times that we have heard that already on this podcast is so bizarre.

[09:55] Meg: “I'll fix him.” Or “He needs me.”

[09:58] Jessica: Yeah, it’s like, hi, he tried to chop your head off. “No, no, it's fine.” Whaaat?

[10:05] Jessica: It's a lot. It's a lot. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I just had a moment.

[10:10] Meg: And in 1982, they were married. It didn't take long for things to disintegrate. Fourteen months after their wedding, Bob came home unexpectedly and caught Gail smoking something he forbade. He jumped over the couch, tackled her, and choked her until she passed out. She reported the incident to the local police, but nothing ever came of it.

[10:33] Jessica: NYPD consistently comes off poorly on this podcast, unfortunately.

[10:38] Meg: Yeah. And there were other things that were upsetting to Gail. He worked obsessively, had strict rules about her weight and hair and how she dressed. Her sister noticed how she wasn't allowed to do anything without Bob's approval. She wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom. Gail would go to turn on a light, and he would grab her hand and then turn it on himself. There's something about that story that just, like, really hit me. I'm like, can you imagine going to just do something and someone stopping you and then doing it? That – I would lose it right there and then. Maybe that's just me.

[11:13] Jessica: No, no. I just – like, I feel like I'm in a horror movie, and I want to stand up in the middle of the theater and scream, “No, Gail! Gail, go back! Get out of the house!”

[11:25] Meg: Yeah, get out of the house. And honestly, her friends and her sister were all saying that.

[11:31] Jessica: Again, shades of Kathie Durst.

[11:33] Meg: Yeah. He would insist she sit on his lap if they were at a restaurant.

[11:39] Jessica: Ew! What?

[11:39] Meg: At a restaurant!

[11:40] Jessica: Like a – like a ventriloquist dummy?

[11:42] Meg: Exactly.

[11:43] Jessica: As she was eating?

[11:44] Meg: Yes! As he was eating!

[11:45] Jessica: Or after the – after the meal?

[11:47] Meg: As both of them were eating.

[11:49] Jessica: Ew.

[11:49] Meg: It's so creepy and weird and uncomfortable and just unthinkable.

[11:56] Jessica: Ew.

[11:57] Meg: Gail gradually grew sick of it all and insisted they go to a therapist, Dr. Michael Stone. After five sessions, Dr. Stone encouraged Gail to leave Bob for the sake of her own safety. He went so far as to get her to sign a letter saying he had warned her that she was in danger. Quote, “If I do not heed this advice, I must accept the consequences, including the possibility of personal injury or death at the hands of my husband, and absolve Dr. Stone of responsibility for any such eventuality.” Thanks, Dr. Stone, for all of your help.

[12:35] Jessica: No! I don't think Dr. Stone did anything wrong.

Meg: I don’t know…

Jessica: I think he told her and it was clear to him. I mean, there's no shortage –

[12:44] Meg: Did he call the police? If he thought she was in danger, he's allowed to call the police.

Jessica: Is he?

Meg: Yes, yes. That's when you're allowed to do it, if you're a psychiatrist.

[12:52] Jessica: Really? I thought that's if you are going to cause others harm.

[12:57] Meg: Doesn't she count? He was – he was her –

[12:59] Jessica: No, no, no.

[13:00] Meg: He was his therapist too! That’s how he knew.

[13:03] Jessica: Oh! Oh. That's the issue here, is that he didn't make Bob promise anything. He made – he made.

Meg: Yes! And he didn’t call the police.

Jessica: Well, if he's saying Bob is a frickin, you know, psychopath, the likelihood that Bob was going to sign off on “I am a psychopath.” was probably pretty low.

[13:21] Meg: Sure. But as you point out, she was supposed to do something about it, not Bob. And also, Michael Stone wasn't supposed to call the police and say, “I just met with a couple in five sessions. I'll tell ya, that guy's gonna kill her.”

[13:34] Jessica: I – I don't know what the doctor-patient rules are.

[13:39] Meg: I'm telling you.

[13:40] Jessica: Oh, okay.

[13:41] Meg: If he thinks that he's going to cause harm, he is allowed to report it.

[13:45] Jessica: All right well then…

Meg: That is my understanding.

Jessica: If that is the case, then Dr. Michael Stone fucked uuup.

[13:54] Meg: But Gail wasn't overly concerned. And while she had been seeing another man and was clearly beginning the process of breaking free from the marriage, she remained in their Upper East Side apartment at 185 East 85th street, between 3rd and Lexington. Do you know that building?

[14:12] Jessica: Hold on a minute. Is that one of the TV shows?

Meg: Yes!

Jessica: Okay. 85th Street… Is that –

[14:18] Meg: What would it be?

[14:19] Jessica: Is that The Jeffersons?  

Meg: Yes!

Jessica: Okay.

[14:22] Meg: Okay. And then on July 7, 1985, she disappeared. Bob went to his nephew's birthday party in New Jersey that afternoon without Gail, and told everyone, including her family and the police, that she'd stormed off after a fight they had that morning again, leaving her purse… because that's a thing. Bob refused to talk to police after a brief initial interview. And the Bierenbaums, Bob's family, hinted that Gail was… You can guess, I'm sure.

Jessica:  That she was a slut?

[14:56] Jessica: She was a horrible person. She was… She brought it on… I don't know. What?

[15:00] Meg: Suicidal and was a victim of a botched drug deal.

[15:04] Jessica: Oh, I’m supposed to come up with that. That's very…

[15:08] Meg: It's on the list!

[15:09] Jessica: That’s very specific.

[15:10] Meg: Those are two of the things that Bob Durst said about Kathy.

[15:14] Jessica: Botched drug deal? Yeah.

[15:16] Meg: That she was like a drug addict and that probably she'd run into some nasty people because of her drug habit.

[15:23] Jessica: Oh, my God. By the way, my use of the word “slut” is to get into the headspace of 1985. It's not a word that I'm using today.

[15:31] Meg: No, certainly not.

[15:32] Jessica: I just. I just have a caveat. I have to put it out there. Continue, please, Meg.

[15:36] Meg: And they probably did, actually, but…

[15:38] Jessica: But, yeah, she's out walking the town in her short shorts and tube top.

[15:41] Meg: Right, it was shorts and halter top. He made it. He was very specific about what she was wearing when she left.

[15:45] Jessica: That's what I'm saying. She's promiscuous.

[15:48] Meg: The conjecture pitted the Katzes against the Bierenbaums. In the meantime, Bob was seen partying at Marrakesh in the Hamptons. And then Detective Andy Rosenzweig discovered Bob had rented a small Cessna 172N from a field in Caldwell, New Jersey, for two hours on July 7, 1983.

[16:13] Jessica: Was this a body dump?

Meg: Yes. Like –  

Jessica: You idiot. Yes. Okay.

[16:20] Meg: You remember that's one of his attributes?

[16:22] Jessica: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That he flies.

[16:25] Meg: Yes. Not only had he not told police about this, but he tried to doctor the flight records.

[16:32] Jessica: Oh, no, you don't, Bob. Big mistake.

[16:36] Meg: But without a body, the evidence was all circumstantial.

[16:41] Jessica: Until the torso?

[16:42] Meg: Well, no, because actually, they didn't have DNA then, so they couldn't definitively say the torso was Gail.

[16:49] Jessica: Do you know how many times we've used the word “torso” on this podcast?

[16:53] Meg: You're right. Oh my gosh.

[16:54] Jessica: Torso is a word that I have to say I generally shy away from. But, yeah, it's really – I don't know, it's chilling. Go ahead. (laughing) I'm sorry I keep interrupting you.

[17:06] Meg: It wasn't before long that Bob moved to Vegas. For years, Alayne left messages on his answering machine, saying…

[17:13] Jessica: “I know you killed my sister.”

[17:18] Meg: I knew you would do that justice.

[17:20] Jessica: (laughing) I'm filled with hatred.

[17:22] Meg: But you love Alayne.

[17:23] Jessica: I do love Alayne. I love the whole. All the women in here are outstanding.

[17:30] Meg: Ten years later, at about the time that the Harriet's were meeting, Detective Rosenzweig was preparing to retire, but didn't want to do so without getting to the bottom of Gail Katz's disappearance. It had plagued him all these years. So he decided to re-interview everyone from the case. One of Bob's former girlfriends from his New York days said she was with him one night when he got a phone call from Port Authority police saying they thought they'd found Gail. How exciting. Right?

[18:00] Jessica: Mmm.

[18:00] Meg: He told them, “I doubt it's Gail.” and hung up.

[18:05] Jessica: Oh, Bob, what a schmuck!

[18:10] Meg: But also, like, you're not so good at this.

[18:13] Jessica: No, that's what I'm saying. He's a schmuck. He's an idiot. He's a terrible criminal. It was bound to catch up with him.

[18:20] Meg: Well, it took long enough.

[18:22] Jessica: Yes, but, you know, thanks to Rosenzweig.

[18:25] Meg: The new DA found the circumstantial evidence compelling. And ultimately, Bob was indicted for Gail's murder in 2000.

[18:33] Jessica: Really?

[18:34] Meg: Uh-huh. By this time, he was married, with a child and living in South Dakota.

[18:39] Jessica: South Dakota?

[18:41] Meg: Yeah, actually. Remember the Harriet's and all the rumors that were swirling in Vegas?

[18:45] Jessica: Sure.

[18:46] Meg: He didn't feel so comfy there anymore.

[18:48] Jessica: Yes, but of all places, South Dakota?

[18:51] Meg: Well, maybe he was just trying to get off the map.

[18:53] Jessica: That is just bananas.

[18:56] Meg: It was a tough case. No forensics, no eyewitnesses, entirely circumstantial. Because now we do have DNA. And guess what?

Jessica: Torso?

Meg: Torso was not Gail. Torso was somebody else.

Jessica: Fuck.

Meg: But also, somebody else.

[19:16] Jessica: I know, I know. Did they figure out who it was? Was there a DNA record?

[19:21] Meg: No, it's just another dead female.

[19:24] Jessica: I mean, the fricking east river is filled with torsos. I mean, not to be too crass.

[19:30] Meg: But Bob was found guilty.

[19:33] Jessica: Really?

[19:34] Meg: And sentenced to 20 years to life. For two decades after his incarceration, he maintained his innocence. And then in December 2020, at his parole hearing, he finally said, quote, “I wanted her to stop yelling at me and I attacked her. I strangled her. I went flying. I opened the door and then took her body out of the airplane over the ocean.” He also told the parole board that he killed her because he was, quote, “immature” and, quote, “didn't understand how to deal with his anger.” He's currently incarcerated at Sing Sing. I mean, ‘immature’, ‘didn't understand how to deal’ with his anger. I mean, that's something like – It feels like something that you would deal with with like a third grader.

[20:17] Jessica: There are many, many problems with Bob. And the thing that immediately springs to my mind is why was Bob so angry? Did something happen in the Bierenbaum home? I'm dying to know. Did anything else get unearthed?

[20:33] Meg: You know what? To me, he seems like a classic narcissist.

[20:37] Jessica: Well, he seems like a pretty much standard variety psychopath.

[20:41] Meg: Had to be controlling. Had to control the people around him.

[20:45] Jessica: No empathy. Yes. Lack of empathy. I'm just going to keep banging away at that drum.

[20:49] Meg: The same evidence that they had at the time of the crime wasn't good enough, was good enough 10 years later or 15 years later because just the system wasn't.

[21:02] Jessica: Well, it's also. Social mores changed.

[21:04] Meg: Social mores changed, possibly the system – I don't know. But the fact is, like, domestic violence was just not acknowledged in any way.

[21:13] Jessica: Well, you're talking about the value of a human life.

[21:16] Meg: Evidence should be evidence.

[21:18] Jessica: Right, but this is circumstantial evidence. So there's no body. Right?

[21:24] Meg: Right. When you've got enough circumstantial evidence, it ends up being evidence, is it not?

[21:29] Jessica: Okay, let's –I'm going to answer the question by giving you another case. My point is Lizzie Borden clearly killed her family, her parents. But she was let off because there was no way that a woman could have wielded an ax and killed her parents. But she did. It's obvious now, but at the time, the evidence was exactly the same. But a woman doing something like that? It would never happen. So your question about are social mores part of – or you know.

[22:04] Meg: No, I think it's. I think it's a system. Like that if you're smart enough, you can get away with it. If you're able to get rid of a body, then you're never going to be…

[22:12] Jessica: I'm saying these are jury trials.

[22:15] Meg: Brought to trial. Sometimes they're judge trials. They weren't even indicted. These men in the 80s who were killing their wives. There are all these guys who were never even indicted.

[22:25] Jessica: Okay, I'm just talking about Bob. It was bad!

[22:29] Meg: No, there's no reason that we need to disagree about that.

[22:32] Jessica: I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you.

[22:35] Meg: So when I say the system didn't acknowledge that domestic violence existed, that circumstantial evidence – actually, if you look at the big picture, it's pretty clear that this woman is no longer with us. That the evidence didn't change over time, but somehow it became more compelling. 15 years later.

[22:56] Jessica: And I'm saying that – when you really boil down the legal system, it's made up of people.

[23:02] Meg: Exactly.

[23:03] Jessica: People who have perspectives. And when I talk about social mores, that's what I'm saying, is that the perspective of the DA, the perspective of the defense counselor, everybody in the room is different. So, point of view is really – there isn't an empirically correct answer.

[23:25] Meg: But that is exactly what I'm saying, and that the law does say that it is empirical, that evidence is evidence. The evidence was the same.

[23:35] Jessica: You've just cracked the code on the problem with the legal system.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah!

Jessica: Yeah, okay. That is exactly the problem.

[23:42] Meg: Well, it was a big eye opener for me, Jessica. I know it's not some big reveal. It's just so obvious in this case.

[23:52] Jessica: I mean, I think that you have done justice to these other cases. You've done such a thorough job that it always seems incredibly obvious. Like, you know, the guy is –  guy is skulking around like, brandishing a knife and, you know, cackling wildly in the shadows and it’s like, “Couldn't be that guy. That guy looks normal!”

[24:17] Meg: People just don't have enough evidence.

[24:18] Jessica: Exactly. It's like, “Okay, I gotta go home now.” It's - It's - Yes, you're right. It's crazy. I mean, that's why DNA and the Innocence Project was such a revelation and changed…

[24:33] Meg: It changed everything. Really.

[24:34] Jessica: Yes. The way that people were prosecuted changed entirely because DNA is empirical evidence. It's the only thing. And everything else is subjective.

[24:46] Meg: Right. There you go. That's it.

[24:49] Jessica: Phew. We got there.

[24:50] Meg: God damn it.

[24:51] Jessica: Geez.

[24:51] Meg: And in the 80s, did you know that it was - the subjectiveness was so… messed up?

[24:57] Jessica: When I was a teenager? No, of course not. How? How could we? We didn't even know what our own points of view… When you're a teenager – and I think it's a great question because, you know, how would we have looked at these things?

[25:10] Meg: I think we were sold a bill of goods a little bit. We were told we had it great. And I don't know if we had it great.

[25:18] Jessica: I don't know if that. I think that for me, at least as a teenager, I wouldn't have questioned it. I would have just been like - I might not have said, “I agree that it's the woman's fault and she should be killed for touching the light switch.” But I do think that as a teenager, the system is the system. Unless you're on the wrong side of it and you get - and you grow up really fast. But for us? No! It was the grownups.

[25:46] Meg: You're right. Trust the people in authority

[25:50] Meg: Not to belabor the point, but I just think it's worth noting…

[25:55] Jessica: You're like, “I'm not going to flog this dead horse. Quick, find me a dead horse!”

[25:59] Meg: That it was really easy to kill your wife in the 80s and really easy to get away with it. I think we can draw a direct line between the activity and the justice system.

[26:12] Jessica: I agree with you. That's what I was alluding to earlier with the whole, like, value of a human life thing. Like, we're still debating. I mean, I'm not going to get into the abortion thing, but the value of a woman's life is historically significantly less than most any and everything.

Jessica: Okay. One of the things that we've talked about a lot is restaurants. And funny enough, I was talking to someone who's in LA -  today, who is working on a cookbook - and we were talking about how New York really has always been a culture of entertaining outside of your apartment.

[26:59] Meg: Okay.

[26:59] Jessica: And restaurants are a very, very big thing. Whereas in LA, you know, there's a lot of home entertaining and, you know, having a big ostentatious house or whatever. There's just a lot of home - and because it's nice outside, there's outdoor barbecue activity. Right? So New York has long, long been a restaurant kind of town.

[27:20] Meg: Love it.

[27:21] Jessica: And so we've talked about a couple of restaurants that were really a big deal in the 80s, and among them Odeon, which we talk about a lot. There's Florent in the Meatpacking District. But these places had a natural enemy. The natural enemy of the restaurant in the 80s was the food critic. Ooh.

[27:42] Meg: Ooh, I love this.

[27:45] Jessica: We're gonna talk a little bit about food critics. And - and I'm going to introduce…

[27:51] Meg: Are there even food critics anymore?

[27:54] Jessica: Well, yes, there's - there are… Well, it's different. There are restaurant reviews, but they're not as personal as they were in the 80s.

[28:02] Meg: Yeah, it was personal. And there were, like, celebrity critics.

[28:06] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah! And, you know, they would have costumes and outfits so they wouldn't be…

Meg: Recognized while they ate.

Jessica: Yes, yes. So we're going to talk - we're going to talk about two - and interestingly, they, a lot of them were women. And so we're going to talk about two women who struck fear in the hearts of restaurateurs.

[28:27] Meg: I know at least one.

[28:28] Jessica: And then I'm going to give you a little… a little twist.

[28:31] Meg: Okay?

[28:32] Jessica: Okay. So these restaurants in the 80s, one of the things that I think made it was a perfect storm for critics was that it was the emergence of “nouvelle” cuisine.

[28:43] Meg: Yes.

[28:44] Jessica: And nouvelle cuisine was sort of Frenchified fare. It wasn't a regular plate of food. It was. Everything was a sculpture or, like. And it was notorious…

[28:56] Meg: Right. A visual impact.

[28:57] Jessica: And it was notoriously, like, tiny portions with, like, “This is a Greene pea. It's a very special Greene pea. I hope you really, really pay attention to this one Greene pea that I've put next to this one carrot.”  So it was, you know, also kind of a joke. But alongside that, and as I was reading through these reviews, what also fascinated me was that there were a whole bunch of restaurants that they were viewing that was not that, but it showed that 80s restaurants were serving food that has gone so far out of style. You'll see what I mean in a moment.

[29:36] Meg: Ok, I'm excited.

[29:37] Jessica: But the two big queens of critique at the time were Mimi Sheraton from The New York Times and Gael Greene from The New York magazine. And Gael Greene was more like the sassy, bitchy for-the-people kind of critic. And Mimi Sheraton was extremely highfalutin. So obviously, the first thing I wanted to do to talk about this was to find their reviews to illustrate this point. And Mimi Sheraton lived like, almost to be almost 100. In fact, is she still alive? I think she might still be alive. In fact, I think she is. She's 96 years old. Clearly, she ate the right things. So I found her review. 24 Fifth Avenue, I think is the name of it.

[30:25] Meg: I got married there.

[30:26] Jessica: I know.

[30:27] Meg: So what was the restaurant in the 80s?

[30:28] Jessica: It was 24 Fifth Avenue.

[30:30] Meg: Oh, wow. Okay.

[30:31] Jessica: And she talks about Michel Fitoussi, who's the chef, and she starts the whole review by - by totally slagging him off. Is it being like, “At his last restaurant, he only got one star. He managed to double it.” So she's… She's coming in hot.

[30:50] Meg: Mimi didn't have a good meal.

[30:52] Jessica: She says, in fact, “For those food rated only one star at The Palace in 1981, it is now well worth two. The cuisine, while still largely nouvelle in presentation, has a more classic solidity to its flavor. And there are fewer of the contrived dishes that bewildered the palate and slowed the kitchen to a near standstill. Sauces remain Mr. Fitoussi’s strong point,” and I think it says a lot about, as I said, you know, what were people eating and what did they prioritize. So she writes, “Game birds, such as quail stuffed with veal and grilled venison, have deep and rich flavors, although they are a bit tough. This flaw would be minor if it were not for the cheap, over-flexible steak knives. They make it impossible to eat even the tender parts of the huge, almost raw and sinewy Muscovy duck breast. Pheasant was excellent one night when its cabbage and bacon stuffing had been portioned out with restraint. But on another night, there was more stuffing than two people could eat, and it was extremely salty and somewhat but overripe. Wild white rice flecked with giblets fleshed out fine chewy squab. And at brunch, sage butter brought fresh flavor to carefully grilled calf's liver. Rare as ordered. A sheer bordelaise sauce added richness and subtlety to roseate kidneys.”

[32:24] Meg: My God.

[32:24] Jessica: Right? Doesn't that sound horrible?

[32:26] Meg: It's so rich. I can't stand even hearing it.

[32:28] Jessica: Well, it's so rich. And it's filled with organ meat.

[32:31] Meg: Yeah. And game birds.

[32:33] Jessica: Game birds! Oh, and at one point she says that “The caviar was fine on one occasion, but on another it was mushy and left an after taste not unlike kerosene.”

[32:43] Meg: Oh, my God.

[32:44] Jessica: So Mimi was going in for the kill with her over-flexible steak knife. And in stark contrast to Mimi, there was Gael Greene.

[32:54] Meg: But you really do kind of feel like you had that meal.

[32:58] Jessica: Yes. Yes, you do. Gael Greene was the first restaurant critic for New York magazine.

[33:05] Meg: Okay.

[33:05] Jessica: And was in fact with New York magazine from its inception, and I'm quoting now from her obituary in The Times: “She cast - Gael Greene - cast a knowing, amused eye over her surroundings and shared the pleasures on her plate with the enthusiasm of a born voluptuary.” Quote, “After Gael Greene, the restaurant review would never be the same.” The critic, Robert Sietsema – Okay, someone's… I know Nick is going to call in like, instantly and be like “You moron.” – wrote in the Columbia Journalism Review in 2010. At Lespinasse – another restaurant we should talk about in the not-so-distant future – Ms. Greene rhapsodized over quote, “The layered perfumes of a jumbo sea scallop, wearing a sesame tuile chapeau afloat in a curry scented puddle.” At the Café Chauveron, she raved about “Infant vegetables tasting as if they'd been grown in butter.” This is a rarified world.

Meg: Baby carrots.

Jessica: Yeah, pretty much. And she said very self-effacingly, “I think I gave New Yorkers a new way to think about food.” So these, this is when. This is the food world.

Meg: Wait she just died.

Jessica: Did she just die?

[34:22] Meg: The reason I asked is-

[34:24] Jessica: November 1st. She just died.

[34:25] Meg: She just died. I saw something about her and when you said Gael Greene, I was like, why is she in the news? Is it just a coincidence that you thought to talk about her?

[34:35] Jessica: Yes. Wow, that's so weird. I'm psychic.

[34:39] Meg: I guess so.

[34:41] Jessica: But the thing about this that I found really interesting and I think it's a good illustration of what New York is really about because, you know, people who visit New York are very quick to say, you know, “The people are rude and the,” you know, “and it's expensive and blah, blah, blah.” - which always makes me laugh. I think about the old joke like “The food was terrible and the portions are too small.” You know, New York, one of the reasons I always love it is that there's, even now when it seems like things are really pretty stagnant. I will never say dead. Stagnant. There are layers and layers to unpack if you actually take the time. These women who really set the tone for this competitive restaurateur-ing, you know, like they really made it into a blood sport. They also did really, really good things. And most notably. Was it Gael Greene? I think it was Gael Greene, along with James Beard, started Citymeals on Wheels.

[35:43] Meg: Oh my goodness!

Jessica: Yes.

Meg: And when did that start?

[35:46] Jessica: That was in 1981.

[35:48] Meg: Oh my gosh.

[35:49] Jessica: And Gael Greene had heard about how elderly New Yorkers were getting through the holidays without any family around them and without any food. And while there had been the equivalent of Meals on Wheels that was funded by the government, there had not been a private, privately funded charitable organization to help. So with the help of James Beard, renowned - renowned, revered food critic of the old school, not the taking-out-his-over-flexible-steak-knife-and-going-for-the-jugular – or the kidneys as the case may be – he got all of - with her - but he really probably got - all of the old moneyed white haired ladies to donate.

Meg: Sure did, I bet.

[36:37] Meg: And all these ladies who go to Mortimer's were very eager to donate, I'm sure.

[36:44] Jessica: Exactly. And so they started Citymeals on Wheels.

[36:48] Meg: This is very timely with Thanksgiving coming up.

[36:52] Jessica: Oh, this is a great thing. Also from her obituary, I'm just going to paraphrase it. She was working for the United Press right out of college and she was assigned to go interview or assist with an interview with Elvis Presley. And she went to his hotel room and one thing led to another and she said “The sex wasn't memorable, but the fried egg sandwich afterwards that he ordered was.”

Meg: Oh my God.

Jessica: (continues quote) “And that's how I knew I was going to be a food critic.”

[37:23] Meg: Are you kidding?

[37:24] Jessica: No, no, no. Well, I mean, it's what's in the obituary.

[37:27] Meg: Didn't she also write fiction?

[37:28] Jessica: And three years later, what Citymeals on Wheels inspired was three years later, God's Love We Deliver, which was the first, like Meals on Wheels that specifically catered to people who were ill. And even more specifically, as the AIDS epidemic just exploded, they would bring meals to men who no one else would get near. And it started out with Ganga Stone and her friend on bicycles themselves.

[37:59] Meg: Who's Ganga Stone?

[38:00] Jessica: The woman who started God's Love We Deliver.

[38:03] Meg: And what's her background?

[38:04] Jessica: I'm about to tell you. But it started out with the two of them on bikes with, like, you know, 10 people who they were taking meals to and went on to serve something like a thousand meals a day. So Genga Stone, interestingly, she was a hospice worker to an AIDS patient in 1985. Oh, excuse me. It wasn't three years later. It was four years later. And her roommate was the person who she started all of this with. Ganga herself, Jewish family. Born Ingrid Headley Stone, raised on Long Island. Her family's original name was Stein. She - I assume in her in her youth - went off to India and studied with the Swami Muktananda and took on the name “Ganga” because it was in some way associated with the Ganges River. And she put God's Love We Deliver together with the Gay Men's Health crisis. And interestingly, the organization is called God's Love We Deliver, but there is no religious affiliation at all.

[39:05] Meg: That is interesting.

[39:06] Jessica: So the snottiest, most judgmental women of New York actually started some of the most caring and neighborly work that lives on to this day.

[39:18] Meg: That's wonderful.

[39:19] Jessica: Yay, them.

[39:20] Meg: I feel like we should say something about Thanksgiving and being thankful and grateful and…

[39:25] Jessica: Well, maybe this is our moment, Meg!

[39:28] Meg: What?

[39:28] Jessica: You know.

[39:29] Meg: Oh, is this when we tell everybody?

[39:31] Jessica: Yes, this is it.

[39:32] Meg: (laughing) What we’ve been hiding all these months.

[39:35] Jessica: So. All right, so, Meg, I will begin the process. I will say I am grateful that this year, as it has been for a few years now, that I will be spending Thanksgiving with you.

[39:50] Meg: Yes, you will.

[39:51] Jessica: And you will be spending it with me.

[39:55] Meg: Because the reason why is because in 2019.

Jessica: Yes, in 2019.

Meg: Jessica's mother had recently passed away. And I invited Jessica and her father over for Thanksgiving, and my mother was there. Her partner had recently passed away, and Jessica's father and my mother hit it off.

[40:21] Meg: And then the pandemic happened!

Jessica: And it didn't stop them!

[40:25] Meg: And my mother reached out after the pandemic-

[40:29] Jessica: No, during the pandemic.

[40:30] Meg: During the pandemic?

[40:31] Jessica: One year in.

[40:32] Meg: Okay.

[40:33] Jessica: One year in.

[40:34] Meg: Well, she asked me. I don't know the details. She asked me for your father's number, which I got from you.

[40:41] Jessica: And both of us went, “Oh, my God!”

[40:43] Meg: What is happening?

Jessica: What is this?

Meg: And the next thing we knew, they were an item, and they still are. And it's wonderful, and it kind of makes us (both Jessica and Meg) sisters!

[40:57] Jessica: (in child-like voice) You're my stepsister!

[41:01] Meg: You're right. That is Thanksgiving themed.

[41:03] Jessica: That is. That is our Thanksgiving, and I think it is absolutely adorable. No one needs to know exactly how old our parents are, but it is a wonderful story. You know, don't ever think that love is not right around the corner. It's very sweet. So, yeah, fambly.

[41:24] Meg: I'm kind of beaming right now.

Jessica: I know!

Meg: I didn't have a sister before.

[41:28] Jessica: I haven't had one either. And we've covered this before. We both have older brothers who went to Collegiate, so you're my… you’re… Yes, our lives are strangely parallel, and they've come together in a very bizarre and yet charming way. That's our secret.

[41:44] Meg: Yay.

[41:44] Both: Happy Thanksgiving.

Jessica: I don't know - I don't even know what I'm bringing or making. I don't know what I'm doing.

[41:49] Meg: I'll send you a list.

Meg: So what's our tie in?

[42:05] Jessica: Oh, okay.

[42:07] Meg: Food critics.

[42:08] Jessica: Okay. Wait. Yours was...

[42:10] Meg: God’s Love We deliver.

[42:11] Jessica: The torso. Dead lady. The guy. The guy. Oh. What were his claims? Did he claim to be a chef?

[42:19] Meg: Yes, A gourmet chef.

[42:20] Jessica: Okay.

[42:21] Meg: And remember, the mother of one of the girlfriends was like, “And his paella was disgusting!”

[42:28] Jessica: Yes, exactly. So there you go. There was a - there was food and a food critic in both of these. Ta da.

[42:34] Meg: What kind of review would Gael Greene have given Dr. Robert Bierenbaum?

[42:39] Jessica: She would have lacerated him. It would have been very ugly.